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Ishmael Community Guestbook Archive

Back to the *Current* Guestbook Previous 15 Records · Next 15 Records

Jim Linder #14988
San Jose, CA USA - Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 23:48:50 CST (GMT -6:00)

Rev Slick, I was not ready to post about this yet, but I do think something has changed since the time Ishmael was published. Maybe it is the place I live (Northern California) or just the people I know, but I have been completely surprised at the level of aeareness in the people I have contacted. While they may not have heard of Ishmael, or may not be to open to read it, they do express a need to change the way they live.

I am starting to believe that this is not going to be as hard as the worse case scenario. (Although I did give up my Suburban because I do thing the day is not too far away when SUV drivers are going to be ridiculed) Look at all the new posters to this site. Maybe someone can do a deep dive on these new posts from people who say Ishmael is changing their lives. I’ll bet the volume is increasing.

Some people I simply mention the simple concept of sustainability, and I hear that they have really been thinking about that too, but just do not know how to go about it. I talk about population and starvation, and some state that more food is not the answer. Most of these people I talk to come up with these ideas on their own, before I even get through telling them the issue! I cannot count on my fingers the number of times I have been surprised when I go to plant a very small seed, and find that one is already growing there.

I do agree with you that THIS, sitting here in my lazy-boy reading and posting messages is not going to save the world. To be honest, it is increasingly seeming to me to be getting in the way of my world-saving, awakening and away-walking activities, and I am considering giving it up. The only thing really keeping me here is the spectacular people that I keep encountering. There are some here that I would say are B. It’s them I want to converse with.


Jim Linder #14987
San Jose, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 23:30:56 CST (GMT -6:00)

Madrone, Madrone, Madrone, please read the top of the Guestbook. Has any of your experience taught you the meaning of tolerance? I usually stay out of these squabbles. I only feel the need to step in when I think one of you is unfairly attacking another. I happen to disagree with most of what I hear Sara say (not all of it by any measure). She has been here quite a while, much longer than you. And while I disagree with her I certainly don’t attack her for her own beliefs.

Can we all just focus on finding things we can agree on and stop jumping down each other’s throats? While the current discussions have been entertaining, I feel the discussions were much more valuable before Madrone and Ameno arrived. We seem to be all squabbling about terminology, tossing each other’s words back and forth trying to catch each other in a mistake, or a bad use of words. You both seem to have taken over the discussions. I like the diversity, but can we cut the attacks and move on to something positive? How about attacking concepts, rather than the person who presents them?

Oh, and personally, I don’t care who has what piece of paper or title, or if they have been studying for 8000 years, if you can’t back up your arguments with facts or at least reference some resources, don’t expect me to blindly agree with you.

That’s all I have to say about that. Jim

Jim Linder #14986
San Jose, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 22:18:57 CST (GMT -6:00)

I found this amazing person over on the Delphi BB. The discussion there moved to Leaver moral values. Or things about Leavers that made their way of life work. Laura! listed these as principles that Leavers lived by that worked:

- erratic retaliation: life is not entirely non-violent. Mostly, though. - firmly assert the boundaries of the resource area that you are using - VERY limited interaction with people outside your cultural group, except for trade in goods. And you trade with the people next door, not with everyone - songs, stories, myth, religion about why you are here and how things came to be this way - children are extremely important. So are old people. Each has a vital role - laws are not prohibitive, they are remedial - strong loyalty to your own people/nation. (where "nation" means a collection of related tribes, not an arbitrarily set of political boundaries) - egalitarian because everyone has a vital role. No hierarchy. - a sharing economy rather than a hoarding economy. Your social status and security depend on you following complex social rules about giving away as much as you can - honour and respect for reality I see no reason why such principles can't be followed and still we have civilization. But a lot would change, just naturally, if a majority people walked away from what we are now doing and toward what I've listed above. Laura

I would recommend everyone think about moving to the Delphi forum. It remembers what messages you have read, and highlights topics you are interested in. You just login and start reading. And the messages go DOWN the page instead of here, where you have to read UP the page. I am seriously thinking of leaving here and moving there exclusively.


Samantha #14985
, AZ USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 21:18:22 CST (GMT -6:00)

Hi All--Checking in so you'll know you haven't gotten rid of all the women;-) This isn't a men's club, of course.(That's for any females who happen to be reading this for the first time.) I've not paid much attention to the posts lately because I find the mudslinging boring. I'm sure I missed some good points at the same time. I think this GB would serve everyone better if the mud were slung in emails and points made in posts. I know of a few folks who looked us up and said, "What the hell is this?" That doesn't mean they won't be about changing minds...somewhere, but we never got to know what they have to offer. Just a thought.

Cheers, Sam

Libran #14984
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 20:54:18 CST (GMT -6:00)


I have thought much about the possibility of ocean travel in regards to the spread of agriculture.

I have only two interesting pieces of evidence to share right now:

The greek arch. This design has been found in a string of archeological ruins from greece west to the maya. The dating of these ruins predates that of known inter-continental travel. Though simple in design, it is doubtful that it spontaneously was developed in two places separated by a considerable body of water.

Additionally, the maya language is so similiar to japanese that the two can hold conversations- both using their native tongue. I believe that the official similarity is 60%, but I'm not sure on that.

If there were people travelling across the pacific by boat so long ago, what evidence would they leave- other than common structures and languages? The boats themselves probably wouldn't preserve well. Perhaps they also transmitted an economy? There is evidence of that- if you consider intensive agriculture as a structure like the greek arch. It can be noted that the civilizations of the americas did not stick around- save the inca, who were conquered. Who can really say whether or not they would have abandoned? To really understand what happened to american civilization, we must examine their specific cultigens. These cultures may have been contacted with a message(via seafaring takers), but their food source may have lacked the addictive chemicals found in the staples of the old world(wheat, rice, barley, milk, eggs). Hence, they were not driven to continue a lifestyle of increased work. The addiction to their food source was not there.

If you're unclear about the addiction thing, I've given an address in my last two posts to a paper that illuminates this hypothesis.

Onward, Libran

VerevolfTheGrouch #14983
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 20:31:47 CST (GMT -6:00)

Hey, congratulations guys. We got rid of another one.

You know, you're right. Mature arrogance was probably the wrong term to use.

doug #14982
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 20:25:57 CST (GMT -6:00)

On notice of the AI comments I have to point out that the invention of the Microchip- this was something managed by an engineer that was educated in the army becasue MIT wouldnt have him. And something, they tell me, no one really can explain or fully grasp the actual workings.

Id suggest collaborations are best at testing, not originating.

The hero always goes into the wilderness alone and returns with the object of his quest. Then the group tries it out...as does the mystic or prophet.

And by the way Aveno, You suggested carpenters talk about mitres and pitch and gables...actually these are architects and designers, a role most carpenters are forced into by neccesity oftentimes.

Its interesting how very little carpenters talk at all. Not about the project anyway...save the odd expletive were all familiar with.

Only in the home improvement shows, and on lunch.

YOu can have a whole crew working for hours and accomplishing tons, nary a word. But there is plenty of communication, like with me and my dog. Constant give and take. When you know one anothers thoughts and needs words are clumsy afterthoughts. In construction only the pittifully new are in need of verbal instruction, and anyone who asks wht to do is hopelssly out of it.

This may be part of why I value directness and minimalism of expression. Partly why our "white" (sure, white regardless of races involved)hyperverbalism is suspect to me. This Wasichu Quality...This may not fit with sophistry at all I realize, and for reasons worth understanding.

madrone #14981
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 20:19:22 CST (GMT -6:00)

I like that, guys, "mature arrogance". I'm gonna use that on my resume, I think. Yeah, my resume, because it's time to find a new job, as I have done here what I came to do. Not an easy job, but some woman with enough smarts and Mature Arrogance has to do it.

So who am I, really, David? Am I Brigitte, or jkd, or Maggie, or any one of possibly dozens of other women (some of whom have posted me privately to cheer me on) who have visited this site before and have spoken up and then stopped, because it is so clearly a men's club? That is, a place where only the manly among us, be they male or female, are going to be heard as long as they stay "logically" focussed on the "issues" (as decided by, and only by, what DQ Himself has deemed important), or are so sweet and demure that they add the needed dose of proper femininity to balance out all this manly stuff.

Have fun, guys. I know I have been. It's just my special gift, and I do enjoy sharing it!

Mature Arrogance! teeheeheeheehee :)

Madrone (or whomever you may think me to be)

doug #14980
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 19:30:19 CST (GMT -6:00)

Thanks Amino,

You took my point exactly and I look forward to your ideas. Clearly this Yurugu that you mention has much to say about this issue of Takers and related issues that are so important to all of us.

Clearly, too, the idea of Taker jsut scratches the surface. Its a simplistic popular handle that inspires needed discussion!

For most of us DQ has merely inspired the questions that have led to a thorough reexamination of the sources of who we are in so many aspects, what we believe, how we make a living, how we derive the calories that fuel our very consiousness and what that says about us. and the way we relate to others and to self. The very basics!

This is something few can handle in any serious way and I think you'll find exceptional individuals here, Fig and Buzz and Madrone and so many others. I look forward to your "discourses" Anyone who can help save me 700p of study is on my side!

I do think a respectful presentation will get you a lot farther than this "I am amused that you think...." and then many more may benefit from your hard work.

I might reccomend the immaculately well mannered presentation of our highly regarded Buzz Bloom.

We have been listening to those that think they have it all figured out for a while here on this GB with varying degrees of interest. And some of us have rediscovered the highly animist book of Ecclesiastes which says "there is nothing new under the sun." Yet there is a time for rediscovery of every relevant truth.

peace Avino- I will be reading.

VerevolfTheGrouch #14979
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 19:24:43 CST (GMT -6:00)

I am well aware that this board is not about AI. I pointed out the example to show that technological development may be moving along in some areas than faster than is obvious and that despite patents and intellectual property laws, the idea of putting things out there to be improved upon is still being exercised a great deal in one of the fastest improving technological areas ever. The thing is that most of the improvements in software technology in recent times have been improvements in methods for building software -- in other words, under the hood improvements that no one really sees but without which much of the software that ships today would be virtually impossible to build.

However, I will not argue that patents and intellectual property laws have absolutely no effect on technological development, because they do. I'm just not sure it's necessarily slowing just because of those things.

Ameno #14978
Los Angeles, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 19:19:14 CST (GMT -6:00)

And verevolf-

MAny people are now patenting METHODS as well, especially business models. If something will be profitable if it can be turned into a proprietary thing, trust me, someone will patent it. When someone FINALLY develops real AI, the VERY first thing they will do is patent it, thereby protecting their product from being built and distributed by another party. Thus, in order to enter the AI industry, a competitor is going to have to WASTE alot of manhours developing an AI that does not infringe on the patent. SO now, not only do they have to invent something, that something they invent can't look too close to the patented AI or they'll be sued. Now instead of just a hard job to do, one hand has been tied behind their back.

Ameno #14977
Los Angeles, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 19:10:32 CST (GMT -6:00)


You are getting way off track. My initial post said that because of patents, technological advancement has been stunted. It hasn't stopped, it has just been slowed beyond an acceptable level (in my opinion).

The artficial intelligence thing et al were just examples. Are we in agreement that technological advances are stifled by patents and intellectual property laws? If so, then fine, we're done. If not, tell me why.

THis board is not about artificial intelligence. And yes, I know that they are currently working on one project in particular that looks promising (read about it months ago, but it has been going on since the 80s I believe). Anyway, this board is not about AI

Jim Linder #14976
San Jose, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 19:6:59 CST (GMT -6:00)

Edens, rather than focusing on adults, try your friends or others your age. They might listen better than adults, especially if they are restless for a better world.


VerevolfTheGrouch #14975
, USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 18:38:3 CST (GMT -6:00)

In what other ways are technological advances made in software than by building products?

Artificially intelligent computer programs have been built. But at the moment they are the work of researchers and academics. Businesses and people in general have little use for them at the moment, even though fairly intelligent "Predator-Prey" programs have been developed where initially ignorant predators develop strategies for catching prey -- as pack hunters. This is largely because people don't really understand how these programs work (they're built from artificial neural nets), but the people who are working on these things are putting what they learn out there for others to look at and build upon. Even on the practical end, people are putting things out there for others to improve upon. Not necessarily specific products but methods, such as methods for searching and sorting large collections of numbers. That is what computer science is all about. Aside from these things, there are no technological development being made in software development and never have been.

Ameno #14974
Los Angeles, CA USA -
Saturday, December 8, 2001 at 18:24:6 CST (GMT -6:00)

My bad,

The technological advance in a Prius is that it has a hybrid engine of electrical and gas. No one had put a hybrid engine in a car before.

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