Note: Beware of a website proclaiming to be New Tribal Ventures/An Ishmael Community! Do not reply to any request for information. Our legitimate pages are available on our site here & on the navigation to the left.

DQ on Facebook!Follow Us on

What's new
Daniel Quinn
Daniel Quinn's books
Schools & courses
Telephone Conferences
This website
New Tribal Ventures
Ishmael's Annex
Speaking Invitations

Visit Guestbook
Find others
Help us
Order books
Contact us
Telephone Conferences
Special Requests

Answers to Questions
DQ's suggested reading
DQ's Blog

The Ishmael Companion
Beyond Civilization
 Study Guide


Ishmael Community Guestbook Archive

Back to the *Current* Guestbook Previous 15 Records · Next 15 Records

El Mono Loco #15093
Portland, OR USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001 at 1:4:35 CST (GMT -6:00)

I don't know what to say, except I'm not willing to write anybody off (not without actually meeting them, anyway).

I would like to post a poem for you folks, that I have been working on. It's about tribe, and walking away, about cultural distance as opposed to convential distance (measured in inches, feet, or miles). Tell me what you think.

"A Farewell To The Taker Story"

I don't speak your language anymore

I don't make sense to you

I've left without you

Me and a thousand little birds

We've left

Because we don't make sense to you

Because we don't speak your language anymore

We've gone far away And found our homes among you

It's hard travel You'll wear out your shoes crossing our doorstep

Shaking hands with each of your ancestors You find us here at the end of the line

You'll find us there singing songs and weaving cloth all the way back to where it begins, now

It's already over so it must begin again, you see

A people that came after they've already arrived

* * * el mono loco

Brent #15092
Oakland, CA USA -
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 at 0:33:56 CST (GMT -6:00)

I’ve been in a quandary the last few weeks. Funny thing is, I’m feeling better than ever and having a blast. It has almost come to the point where I’m not exactly sure what I’m confused about. In fact, sorting all this out for myself is one of the reasons I’m writing this message.

It all started months ago, when I read “A Language Older Than Word’s by Derrick Jensen. (Besides Quinn, there isn’t another book I would recommend more adamantly.) I began questioning many of my values and memes with regards to when to fight and when to walk away. Will I be able to handle the heartache of watching it all die in my lifetime? Tigers, pandas, birds, frogs, turtles, whales, reefs, rainforests, wetlands…humans. Does our next life at all depend on the existence of certain creatures in this life? How can I not be attached to the outcome of all these other species, when my own is causing their demise? Can I handle watching over and over again any unique and defiant cultures get stomped to pieces? Can I cope with watching over and over again unique and defiant cultures get overrun by or lured back into the culture of maximum harm? Is there a fight worth fighting? Or do I build new cultures through art, music, dance, language and community? Won’t those cultures eventually find themselves in a fight with the arbitrators of the One Right Way? If they aren’t on the radar, then can they be much better than Taker culture for the sustainability of the human race? Are they doing things that will lead to sustainability? Can we ever possibly know?


The last thing I want to do is make light of other people’s pain. It obviously affected all of us enormously. However I’ve encountered a variety of reactions to the event. Some were rallying around the flag and giving the president and his administration an enormous amount of support and autonomy in dealing with the situation. Out here in California, there were plenty glued to their TVs for weeks. Others to NPR and KPFA radio. Thousands protested in Berkeley. By the new names in the guestbook lately, it seems that others were awoken to Quinn’s message, or are delving deeper into ideas that they have been pondering for a while. What has struck me the most is the energy all around. Whatever perceived side, energy abounds.

Not me though. I was demoralized. During the couple of months after 9/11, most of my time spent outside of supporting my own existence was used to learn how to play the guitar. That was all I could be excited and energized about. I’ve been on such a high all year and so full of hope for significant change that this all seemed like such a giant leap backwards. Diversity and what a friend of mine refers to as coopetition seemed more doomed than ever. All this rallying and pulling together as countries or in some sense as a species seemed like a sure fire way to halt the evolution of sustainable cultures. It started to feel like it is all for naught and our extinction was inevitable. I had trouble sleeping, working, and communicating with friends and family most of whom were radiating brilliant energy. In all directions mind you.

So, I’m more confused than ever. When do I fight? When do I walk away? When do I give? Who do I give to? When do I leave be? What do I do? I’m confused as ever and couldn’t be happier about it.

A few years ago, I never would imagined saying what I’m about to say. I am guided by faith and driven by instinct. I have faith in my Worldview. Humans are part of the sacred universe. Humans and the community of life are one in the same. I can see this with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears. All of creation has that fire of life burning within. All of creation makes it’s own beautiful music. All of creation follows it’s own sacred path that is completely unique from any other. Just take off the fucking goggles and earmuffs and take notice. I have faith that this Worldview will guide me along my sacred path and make each decision seem less like a choice and more like fate. I have faith that a fundamental change in Worldview is the only way our species is going to survive our own short sited culture. I have faith that what will make me truly happy will also help change the world. I have faith that I could very well be sadly mistaken. It was the process of questioning this faith that has made it stronger and given me the energy to follow my heart with the passion the world deserves from me.

A new friend of mine told me that generalizations are dangerous. I tend to agree and would have to add that truths are even more dangerous. And none more so than The One Right Way to Live. Have faith brothers and sisters. Have faith that your instincts will guide you along your own sacred path. Have faith that your instincts will lead you to the Right Way for you and you alone.

My love goes out to all of you.


Brent #15091
Oakland, CA USA -
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 at 0:12:28 CST (GMT -6:00)

This is truly sad. In the past we've had arguments, shouting matches and name calling. However, I don't think I ever felt this little love at what I once considered the most important website in the world.

Debbie #15090
, NJ USA -
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 at 0:6:0 CST (GMT -6:00)

Dammit, I can't fall asleep! Okay, one more thing...

I was just thinking about the whole feminism thing. Why is it that feminism is discussed on this GB almost constantly, but racism is not? They're both interesting topics for discussion. Both can be pinned down as part of the "source" of totalitarian agriculture and takerdom- on the feminism side, it's easy to make the connection between treating women like property and treating the earth like property; on the racism side, it's easy to make the connection between viewing your neighbors as inferior to you and believing you have the one right way for people to live. Both manifest themselves in our society in very ugly ways- for every violence against women statistic Maggie could quote us I could probably find a hundred on racial profiling and police violence against minorities.

Of course, nobody's saying that racism isn't a problem any more than misygny (or however you spell that) isn't a problem. I'm also not saying that DQ's writtings are flawed and shallow because they don't develop these topics more deeply.

I am, however, questioning why this GB is so obsessed with feminism but not with racism. They're just so similar. I think the answer, quite simply, is that there are plenty of women here, but pretty much everyone is white. Of course I can't be absolutely certain of that because I haven't met any of you face to face, but I still think it's safe to assert that. I think it's safe to say that if there were any amount of non-whites here, we'd be discussing racism a whole lot more, just as because there are a lot of women here, we discuss feminism a whole lot.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is, except maybe to reaffirm my opinion of feminism as IBNV (interesting but not vital). Oh well, whatever, I'm going to bed.

Debbie #15089
, NJ USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 23:42:8 CST (GMT -6:00)

While I'm suffering from a bout of insomnia, I thought this would be a good time to throw my two cents in on the GB's lastest soap opera.

Sorry Maggie, but from how you've described it, Doug's correspondance with you hardly seems like abuse to me. So he wanted to see your picture. What's the big deal? To listen to someone's words and ignore the fact that there's a living breathing human being attached to them seems to go against everything you've been preaching here. I don't really understand the deal with the EX-WIFE but it seems all he was doing was gossiping. Like none of us have ever done that before. And I don't see why anyone would be shocked that he sent you a mean-spirited e-mail after you revealed your "true identity." Truthfully, after I read that post I though you were quite a bitch too. Or at least, that what you did was a bitchy thing to do.

Comparing Doug to Ted Bundy or a wifebeater, even indirectly, is just nasty and uncalled for. It seems like all you're doing is trying to embarrass him.

One more thing. I wouldn't take it as such a badge of honor if someone suggested I needed therapy. Remember, for every insane genius that comes along there are at least a couple million more who are just nuts.

Bev #15088
, Australia -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 23:14:27 CST (GMT -6:00)

So Maggie, if you think changing the world means you have to abuse and vilify people to do it, then maybe I'd rather leave the world as it is.

Vered #15087
, South Africa -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 20:57:2 CST (GMT -6:00)

Mike - # 15421 you are a quiet voice of sanity :-) I agree, communicating and listening to like minded people ( in all their diversity) keeps a perspective on matters and helps clarify ideas and goals. We must question our own motives.

Sara - # 15418 - The movies coming out of the USA - violence & disaster - for the last 5 decades, are creating memes designed to trigger mass hysteria and paranoia.

I refuse to watch any movies, TV, video clips coming from the USA - I find them so sick and irritating ( with a few exceptions of masterpieces - not mainstream )- women are targeted as victims on all levels ... they even look like victims with bloody lips and blackened eyes.

For the last 10 years I have never locked my front or back doors.

Create new memes.

Love to All :-) Vered

Nikolai #15086
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 20:30:47 CST (GMT -6:00)

Some years ago when in college I was assigned several quinn books and subsequently, for one glorious week, was given the helm of class discussion. With whatever grace and alacrity that was at my disposal at the time i helped navigate through the suppositions imposed on "my" students' religio-cultural backgrounds to ascertain the truth, "Truth", la verdad, or however you might choose to anunciate the space between the lines. we had it out. we killed brain cells. we banged, banged and blamed. The poverty of philosophy as it was, remains as such: a hunchback to the current -and as we may all agree, the past ruling ideology/aristocracy whose present regis is bombing its former fatherland to bitterness. Since then i have been trying to remeber the sensation of having first realized the implications of quinn's work. I think its important to note with or with out amusement that, as Greg Graffin points out, " history as its been portrayed is just a recipie for hate." That's from a song by Bad Religion. My tendency to want to philosophize on the matters quinn has brought to my attention has unfortunately led me to a deeper darker place. A place that has made me write a waltz. Here are some lyrics: " dante's third ring/the bee-hive and its sting/ absence of will/prescription for courage pill/ the money you have will buy you your human worth / after you born your swimming in afterbirth. I'm acid free/ nuetral complacency/ chaos is sweet, market is its name/ estrangement's the spoon desire is aspartame. "

VerevolfTheGrouch #15085
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 20:1:23 CST (GMT -6:00)

I'd wish you congratulations on your genius, maggie, but you seem to be doing a pretty good job of it yourself.

maggie #15084
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 19:48:32 CST (GMT -6:00)

So, what else is Doug gonna say? Is he gonna fess up to his lewd remarks to me about the EX WIFE of a famous person, or his insistence that "there can't be 2 in the conversation if YOU don't respond to MY content"? Did I or anyone expect that? As for the rest, you are of course free to believe what you like about any of this, or about me.

But I will say this: no one who ever really changed the world or stopped abuse, sat around talking politely about abstractions. They have all spoken the truth fearlessly, and taken the ACTION needed to make the world different, no matter what the resistance to them. And have most often been branded insane, unstable, antisocial, whatever...that is, until their efforts made a difference, at which point they suddenly became a genius instead, sought out instead of reviled. This has already happened in my life more than once, and I am sure it will happen again--tho perhaps not here.

So thanks, Sara, and you all--you place me in company with the greatest people in human history. Believe me, I'd rather be me, and thought to be "in need of therapy" by you any day, than to have "impeccable manners" and leave things just as they are.

By the way, I in no way meant that Doug's fine message of Sunday had "sinister intent". Just needed to point out that the speaker of that fine message had a side or 2 that at least we women here ought to be aware of, for our own safety.

Oh, and Jaret--some of the most seemingly "nice and real" people I have ever met upon casual acquaintance, turned out to be pretty awful human beings. Ted Bundy, who raped and murdered several women in the Northwest some years back, was famous for his "realness and charm"--and had a girlfriend who was with him for years before she figured out who he was. So, I'm sorry, but your meeting with Doug hardly qualifies as a character-reference. Not to mention the fact that a man who doesn't see you as a potential player in his sick drama, isn't going to treat you the same way that he treats his victims. Tons of wife-beaters are very well-liked by their friends, who know not what goes on behind closed doors.

So, nuff said. Do continue with your fine discourse. Those of you who are interested in reality, might want to call your local battered women's shelter, to get the lowdown on the abusive personality, and the statistics on woman-abuse. That is, if it wouldn't rock your world too much to know the truth.


Jaret #15083
Vancouver, Canada -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 17:19:53 CST (GMT -6:00)

Hello all

Hey Michael, I thought you wrote your note very nicely about the soap opera bit and your feelings since seeing the GB. So much can be seen that is not there without the other 90% (tone of voice, facial expression, etc..) of communication skills we have.

Since personal information is being made light about Doug from one persons perspective, then maybe we should have another to help all the people that haven't met him get as best picture as possible.

My girlfriend and I did a trip to Portland a couple months ago to meet up with some like minded people and have a beer in person. Doug was one of the people we met and I must say that both of us were taken back by how he came off because we both left there thinking what a real and nice person he is.

I have thought of him already countless times when I think of my future and my sustainable cabin I want to start building next year, because if you don't know, he is a skilled carpenter. He has a wealth of knowledge and opinions that I could only hope to tap and get to know a bit if I was lucky enough to get him to come and help me build for a month or two. He has fantastic ideas for building efficiently and sustainable, using recycled wood, where to get it, designs his own home (a house boat) and then built it (don't know if he still lives in that one)..

Anyhoo, can't wait to see him again next year when a west coast run is done again. Brent, Stephen, Chazz, and others... and my girlfriend feels the same way.

For another personal story and I'll try to be brief. I'm a party, college, salesman guy (if that helps at all) well, ex partier. Needless to say a friend of mine made a meet people website and in the beginning got me to help put adds in my local paper to help drive people to it. Those things don't really work without people, so I went on it in the beginning and made a file. As a plug for him it is www.dreammates.com, corny I know, and I gave up on it after a year because the women I was meeting weren't my type, really nice and I made some friends, but nothing romantic. Another quick note though, I decided to answer a girl just over a year ago from Whistler BC, and low and behold we have been together over a year now and living together, whew, kidding, it's great. Hey what can I say, it's hard meeting people when you feel a certain way about religious beliefs and the way we feel about the system as Ishi's. The site is rather big now, wish I had been in on it.

Anyway, in my year of active dating I came in to contact with a number of women from all over the world, who knows why they would contact you if their not in your city and your in the dating category?? Some girls you'd meet right away, some you'd email for weeks and not get a phone number, some would send a number within a couple emails, some just pitter patter away, the dating thing, kinda. Some have pictures on the file and some don't. I would meet people that didn't have a picture even if they didn't send me one ahead of the date. No biggy, I love meeting people, salesman. I ended up meeting about 10 or 12 in a year, lunches dinners whatever. The point finally, I would always push for meeting or a phone number when I felt I could because I hate just emailing. especially if you are looking to actively date, not email buddies. If they didn't want to then that is fine by me, we would just end contact, I assumed there would be nothing in common if we didn't even have that in common. I might have missed out, but what can you do. More than once though the girl turned mad and said I was being mean and presumptuous? and that a girl has to watch out and I totally agree. I would respond and say I totally understand but without better contact I can't risk wasting my time. And that's that. Girls did it to me when I said something they misunderstood and I couldn't recover from. Some though, they get real mad when you brush them off and many misunderstanding arise when even a slight emotion is altering your thinking when your writing words via email. You word things badly and there taking things badly and it just gets worse.

Not trying to lighten anyone else’s words on the subject here, I have a sister and it's crazy what some men think they can get away with, but email conversing is just so hard. This GB is not a place we go looking for dates, but it is a place where we go to meet like minded people who we could maybe one day know and spend time with. I caught myself wondering what a girl would be like in here a number of times when I was single. It's so nice when your here and so many people think the same, so different from daily life where people actually hope I won't get in to major discussions....lol. But I know I sure wanted to meet a girl who was like minded and am glad I have. We are happy the sexes are different, aren't we? I certainly am. Though there is no excuse for rudeness and some should deal with things between them, between them.


Oh and sometimes I sign my name Jaret, or jaret, or j or J. Just wanted to make sure I'm on the up and up, seems sometimes people don't know their own names in here. No attempt at deceit here.

I don't see how claiming to be what your not could ever offer up any valid results. Any false knowledge gained from such an experiment could only lead to more if used as a basis for anything.

Cheers, off for a beer, I'm 26 today!!


Mike #15082
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 17:10:14 CST (GMT -6:00)

Many times, stories are written to be taken not literally but to teach lessons, like fables, or as propaganda, or as symbolic.

DQ simply said that it makes sense to him that certain parts of Genesis originated in this way and for different purposes than we generally take them to be.

When we're writing to each other here in this format I think most of us expect to be taken literally.

doug #15081
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 17:10:0 CST (GMT -6:00)

In the REAL news, there is an Enron Bankruptcy which is of interest to those who are keeping track of the Bush insiders and the role they play as per the idea of TAkerism that we study here...

The largest bankruptcy in history, 20 billion I hear, and smelling of the same stuff of the S and L scams earlier which the Bushes were also involved in.

here is a reference from Thom Hartmanns website to share here, his response to the above comment...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The most interesting connections in this whole thing are the ones between Enron and the Bush/Cheney gang. There's a fascinating article about it at: http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1211-10.htm I remember that during the S&L crash and bailout during the Bush Sr. administration, Neil Bush ended up doing very well with his Silverado S&L while stockholders and depositors were out in the cold. It seems like a repeat of an old story is happening..."


I take the liberty of sharing a resource that means a lot to me. Peace, all.

Kurmann and Mike and others have Thoms articles and links and you can find his website jsut under the name Thom Hartmann.


Sara #15080
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 15:29:12 CST (GMT -6:00)

Maggie/Madrone/JKD --

therapy. really.

doug #15079
, USA -
Tuesday, December 11, 2001 at 14:54:7 CST (GMT -6:00)

Maggie has been sharing with us about the "Real Doug" from a handful of mails that in the end went badly...over one week, as did her appearances here...under three names...the same person still there.

I think that about says it.

She identifies me with a pattern she sees. And I am IT. As she identified other villans before I was available to take the job...Glad to serve as needed.

Previous 15 Records · Next 15 Records

Top of page
Site design and content, © 2018, Daniel Quinn