Doug, Mike, Others: I was looking for an answer that goes Beyond Conjecture.
Regarding the "original spiritual vision" and Thom Hartmann, I encourage everyone who hasn't yet to read his awesome article "The Lost People." This is a great answer to FC's question.
Yes, it's that pamphlet post again, Guestbook regulars, so feel free to skip it:
With Dan's permission, my brother and I have produced tri-fold pamphlet versions of seven Quinnian speeches: "Reaching for the Future with All Three Hands," "The Little Engine that Couldn't," "A Path of Hope for the Future," "The New Renaissance," "Our Secret Plan" (appears under the original name of "On Investments" on this website), "Technology and the Other War," and "Protecting the Environment" (if you haven't already read them, you can go to the "Things to Read" section and click on "Essays and speeches" to do so). Bev Courtney and I have also created a pamphlet of our own called "Tunnel Vision: How We're Thinking Ourselves and Our Children to Death" which explores the question of worldview. DQ has put his stamp of approval on it by allowing us to use the "Ishmael in thought" image. In addition, I have created a version of DQ's "Talk About Wealth!" essay that's more suitable for copying and distribution than a simple print-out from this website would be. I am distributing some of these in the Kansas City area with the help of other local Bs. [What this means is that we leave them at libraries, coffeehouses, bookstores, and the like for people to pick up, not that we stand on street corners passing them out. I'm not saying that such an approach would be "wrong," but I think it's best to let people come to these ideas on their own, when they're ready.] If you'd like to get masters of any or all of these materials so you can make copies to distribute in your area (don't worry, they won't cost you anything), contact me.
You can check up on the rest of what I'm doing by pulling up my entry in the Ishmael Community Network. Also, click on my name to visit the on-line column I co-hosted with Bill Gresham called "Rethinking the World."
In addition to the pamphlet masters, I also have a few other things you might find of interest:
-A 1992 story about DQ from a publication called Inquirer (e-mail copy);
-A 1996 interview with DQ (a very extensive one) from Illusions magazine (website link);
-A recounting of an e-mail dialogue between DQ and Lance Pierce, also from Illusions, which illustrates both how Quinn thinks and how his ideas are often misunderstood; this one's very important to understanding what DQ is really saying (website link);
-A 1997 interview with DQ from The Sun magazine (e-mail copy);
-A 1999 article about DQ from Texas Monthly magazine (e-mail copy);
-An essay by Thom Hartmann (author of The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight) called "The Lost People" (website link);
-An essay by Ronald Wright (author of Stolen Continents) called "Civilization is a pyramid scheme";
-An essay by Jared Diamond (author of Guns, Germs and Steel) called "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race";
-A joint statement issued by the US National Academy of Sciences and the Royal Society of London titled "Population Growth, Resource Consumption and a Sustainable World" (nice to have around to show to folks who think science is going to be able to solve our problems because it makes clear that scientists aren't by any means convinced of that; website link to preview and hard-copy available);
-Files delineating the revisions made to Ishmael, The Story of B, and My Ishmael when they were released in later editions.
E-mail me if you would like any or all of the above items.
Hope to hear from some of you soon. Take care.
I'm with you all the way, Vered, live healthy and know what it is your eating. Support local business all the way too. I just don't know if organized has to be a bad word.
I jsut wanted to add that my recent awareness was always there but but jsut came together recently through reading Hartmann, and to refer anyone to Thom Hartmann, jsut look under the name on any search engine, and also Neale Walsch the Conversations WG-d guy who I have not read but I know is right along this line of adressing our current historical crisis through deep personal, real spirituality, as opposed to religion.
We are all essentially spiritual, your wonderful accptance of my post proved that to me more than I could have ever imagined. I never thought more than even a few would read such a long thing....
Again, thanks all.
Jaret - The danger in getting organized is that the system can fight you so much better.
As it is, big business is on the bandwagon producing "Natural" products such as soaps, cereals and lots of vitamin supplements etc, while at the same time implementing new myths about what constitutes a "Natural" product.
How many people will agree that fresh herbs are better in cooking than (dead) dried herbs ?
How many people can you convince to use a medicinal herb straight from the field ?
We have loads of Pharmaceutical preparations - all derived from plants. Isn't it interesting that we are being told that research into the most common medicinal herbs is not complete , hence not recommeded for use ?
And how safe are the chemical preparations we call medicine ? In my opinion - which is supported by people close to me who use "simple" herbs - downright dangerous.
People here seem to shy away from the practical.
Love to All :-)
No Sara, I dont think the mind changes us. It is not the highest energy or our source...its on the level of the problem.
We are alive, this is a miracle, when we touch the source of life and are aware of it, we dont jsut change, were transformed. Some say born again...but its a tricky term meaning lots of things.
It happens with LSD to some, Larry Hagman jsut reported this experience in his past totally removed all fear of death in him.
The irritating snot that pissed us off suddenly is endearing to us...suddenly we see our own flaws and are ashamed and contrite because we have seen what we are. HOw could we be so wasteful and selfish...destructive and wanton, no one having said a thing.
YOU will have this expereince, and have had. We all do. But we are bad at recognizing it. Worse at trusting it...
I am following the model we mostly follow here FC., that 'the garden' lasted from the time man was first here until the time he began building fences and needing the commandments. When he decided he wanted to try out the role of God and see how it fit...and the drama begins. Its a place in 'being' mostly and still exists in rare places, this eden...as it did in much of America when "we" got here. Many christians believe Jesus came to america and just enjoyed some good company and shared with like minded folks, some say there are some sixty Jesus stories among the Cherokee, all oral. They wouldnt have killed him for anyhting. They didnt need him, so he left. What difference does it make?
This is the model of any person who accepts as evidence obvious information. Like dinosaur bones...and which a great number of Christians as conservative as you accept with no problem.
Yes, Fig. And Moses and John the BAptist and the cult of the Esscenes lived in wilds, and I have read lately about Russian orthodox mediavil monks who walked into the great forests jsut following the voice of g-d and refusing to take weapon or help...they were the prototype of St Francis and this amimist content is so vital to the reality of spirituality, to say 'brother' to this bear who may eat you in a minute. thats faith in my book. The stories say they did this.
Christianity is founded on Blood, not money. Animists get blood, what it is, the heat in ones breath......christians are stuck in the dollar zone and keep giving god grain and with the same result, pissing him off.
One may not approach g-d with grain of any kind, I hope to understand what this really means as I go on.
The encounter directly with ones G-d changes the way people live and see other beings, dramaticaly. It makes the go from slaver to nurturer of the wounded, freer of slaves....It jsut does, no reason.
Thanks again all for the support as I made clear what I feel here. This is what is called 'the Feast' in many stories. It certainly doesnt always happen this way!
Much love to all.
Have you ever felt the sting of tears when watching a sunset? Have you ever taken heart to speak to the spirit of a river, as you plunge into it's depths, casually dodging the sharpest of rocks? Your river takes the likeness of a string of words to me. Have you ever immersed yourself beyond the words, into an experience of moments, where each is more delicious as time unfolds? Have you ever closed your rigid, unyeilding tome in favor of the nimble humming bird, as he zigs here and there, taking his fill from the lips of scintillating exuberance? Have you ever released the penned word for a moment, to float away upon the glassy flow, so that you may partake of the fire's glow?
You were there once. Be assured of this. Our parents and their parents before them, unto the great rift, have been misled- into that realm of guilt and regret. There is a source behind them that still rumbles beneath this failed immortal facade. Every part of your being tells the tale of what once was. Marvel at yourself as you choose your path on this earth. Imagine the possibility of a creature such as yourself- able to take in the world as pure delight, or to throw identity to the wolves; that they may tear out your respite. Marvel at yourself as your last breath ebbs beyond the lips. You will one day give back what has been given you. This is the greatest ecstacy of all; to understand ones true place in the heart of it all.
Yes, FC, it is true, Doug was there. So was I, and it was a beautiful thing. We might not have believed it had we not seen it with our eyes, experienced it with our own bodies. Things were a lot different a couple hundred thousand years ago.
Doug and I have been through a lot. It's going to be really sad when I have to cut off his head. I am sure Doug would say the same about me. There can be only one you know. :-)
Seriously, you make a good call, how do we know how well it worked for our ancestors, or whether what we experience today is the same as what they experienced then.
We can know a bit about how it compares to what Leaver people believe today, but I don't suppose that by default makes it the original vision. Still, you might check out David Abram's work, the Spell of the Sensuous, which is a philosophical treatment of the animistic worldview. A pretty fascinating book. Understanding that, you might imagine how this could have been the original spiritual vision.
Spend enough time patterning your mind on the wilderness, as Jesus did, and you may come to hold this original spiritual vision as well.
I always wondered why more Christians didn't seek that particular experience in their attempts to be Christ like. If I were ever to start a Christian sect, I think I would make it the cornerstone of the faith: the Christ Wilderness Church.
Thanks for that post Vered, interesting article.
And Ameno, that trend you were talking about that affects the Pacific Northwest from SF to the border with Canada, goes past the border and I must admit it is nice being part of that demographic.
Sounds like it is a vastly growing demographic too, 50 million strong, sounds like we need to get in to politics. Deversity is our strength I agree Vered but organized independance could have some great results.
Tough call I guess, who knows if we would learn the right lessons if we changed the system useing the system. I kinda of liked what someone was saying about just getting everyone educated and independant so that we can walk away from the system, making it obsolete. That way could be slower and harder though, foods like dog food and all that. But to speed it up with processes would be systems.?.? Is there not something that might apply to the thousands of diverse countries, tribes, communities, that could assist to spread things faster? Maybe that's just holding on to programs to much. But what do you do after your already setting the example. Just keep taking care of yourself, for sure, but that doesn't stop the pollution from killing the tops of the trees. One step at a time I guess, maybe just getting products out there that help assist people in freeing themselves from the system is a start.
Till next time.
In regards to what you call "original spiritual vision", you stated "It was stable and it worked for tens of thousands of years."
Who/what told you that it was the "original spiritual vision"? What is your source? Your self? A mystical experience? Feelings? Emotions? Or some other highly subjective matter?
Also who/what told you that it was stable and it worked for tens of thousands of years."? How do you know this? Were you there? What is your source?
My web site, The Gospel according to Ishmael was last updated 9/29/01.
Ishmael has come to me from two different and important sources. I can take a hint! Now it's my turn to pass it along.
Doug: Staying open in our hearts is the worthiest of tasks, congratulations. You are welcome in my heart at any time. Your post stopped the GB.Literally, gave pause to heart felt genuine real Love.This source of your and mine, ours, is exactly the jolt that is needed in thick talks like these have been.
My words are not coming out the way I mean them to today, but I also want to say thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thank you! Ciao to most, I'll pop in on occasion. With Love, As Always, Karryn
Doug, that's really great. It is wonderful when your life can be changed for the better, no?
For the rest,
I am working on the discourses (felt sick this weekend and didn't get much work done), and as they are completed I will post the address. I welcome any comments or desire for further discussion in e-mails. I just need to get to work while I am still inspired. So, thanx again all for inspiring me.
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