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Ishmael Community Guestbook Archive

Back to the *Current* Guestbook Previous 15 Records · Next 15 Records

Jaret #15048
Vancouver, Canada - Monday, December 10, 2001 at 9:33:38 CST (GMT -6:00)

Very Nice Doug! It's kinda like when you feel that some one is looking at you in a crowded room, and you turn directly at the person that is doing it.??

Bye Jim, and yes it is very nice meeting in person isn't it, shows you why there are so many misunderstandings in the GB.


Sara #15047
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 8:49:11 CST (GMT -6:00)

sorry for the triple posts...

doug, great post.

i just have one question.

you said change minds DO NOT change behavior? what does, then?

doug #15046
, USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 8:31:49 CST (GMT -6:00)

Thanks everyone, I think I came here with my religion and lost it, and found my God, which I had from the beginning but couldnt see because of all the paid prophets with thier hands out...Not that I can tell you his name because I cant.

Someone likes to write G-d jsut to express this as some Hebresws deliberately misspeled it.

But thank you all for your respects and encouragement. Neale Walsch who I have not read says "Its a spiritual problem" this crisis we are in...then he refers us to places we may buy books and give ten bucks.

That is not a spiritual answer.

I am asking G-d how to offer a siritual answer, how to touch that hem of the garment, and yet remain free of the contamination we are so good at here as identifying as takerism, the gift of grain.

G-d does not want our brains or words, or grain of any kind, but US ourselves before we will have an answer here. This much I know.

I thought "Namaste" meant that the god in me could kick the butt of the god in you:), yes, thanks all. This was a fairly risky thing for me to post.

Sara #15045
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 8:22:24 CST (GMT -6:00)

one more thing...

bev --

sorry i didn't respond to your response to me, i meant to but the french lab closed and they kicked me off the computer. being afraid of new york in 1985 is completely understandable. i wasn't here then, but from what i heard, this was a pretty scary place back then... but the city has completely changed. of course, some are speculating that it'll change back -- part of the reason for the drop in crime was the rising rents. junkies can't afford to live in the East Village anymore when a studio there costs $2000 a month...

Sara #15044
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 8:15:58 CST (GMT -6:00)

as usual i have a lot to say.

first, i agree that the mudslinging that have been going on around here lately needs to stop. of course, i have been one of the culprits there, and i'm sorry. i'm going to try to read any potentially attacking posts with an unbiased eye from now on, and even if they are still really insulting, i'm going to try to maintain my tact and not start up all the typical bullshit.

that said, i still have a few things to say.

ameno, you asked how i live sustainably in new york city. i'll admit we have different ideas of what sustainable means. but i'll explain to you what i do. first of all, the only expenses i have are rent, food, and my electric bill, as well as the occasional movie. this is because of a few things, partially luck and partially my thriftiness. i have no phone bill because of Verizon red tape i've described before (that's luck). I don't get cable because i don't really care about that. i use the internet solely through work and school. i rent movies and check out books from the library for free (which is also a source of internet access). public transportation is exponentially cheaper than having a car. basically, i've illiminated all excess costs, either by just not using things or by taking the cheap way out. i agree this isn't the most sustainable way of life, but it's no worse than people who live in the country who also must pay for housing, phone and electric service, food, transportation, etc. even people who have communes have monetary "taker" expenses. no one on this planet lives completely independent of Takerdom.

Jim Linder #15043
San Jose, CA USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 7:50:3 CST (GMT -6:00)

All, so it is with some reluctance that I must bid this GB goodbye. Keeping up here has taken all my spare time. I theorize that this is due in part to the format. I also have met up in person for the first time with another Ishi, and I have to say that if you haven’t done this, it is far better than typing words on a page. Facial expressions, eye contact, and such are very important, and can’t be expressed here. Also, the immediate feedback as you are making statements is so refreshing.

I also think that the Ishmael site minder’s intent not to have this type of discussion should be honored. Especially of late when a passerby may actually be put off by what they read here. I will still use this site, and may even post here occasionally, but I will look at it like a Guestbook. Something you sign as you enter to let others know you were here, why you were here, and what you’re about.

This will be the last GB message I read for a while. So if you wish to say goodbye, or send a parting message, I invite any and all to send email. I also will be hanging out on Delphi and Moonshadow for a while (at least until they start to take too much of my time)

So I am saying goodbye to the Guestbook, hopefully not to the people here. I thank all the people who have helped me solidify my vision. I hope to see you on one of the other forums. If you want my 2 cents, or if it’s OK if I ask your input once and a while, or you simply want to say hello, feel free to send an email.

Keep in touch Jim

Mike #15042
, USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 7:49:5 CST (GMT -6:00)

Jim wrote:

"As for the remark about the GB before you and Madrone came..."

This was not the remark. Just to set the record straight, the remark that the guestbook has changed, possibly in a negative way did not focus one bit on individual posters.

Jim Linder #15041
San Jose, CA USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 7:37:7 CST (GMT -6:00)

Ameno, first let me apologize, I should have learned not to post so late. It distorts my perception. I was in a bad mood after getting into it with my daughter. I read this:

“Quinn's version gives so little shrift to how Takers became Takers (he basically says that somehow this mutation of totalitarian agriculture sprung up,a dn then people locked up food, etc...), that this fallacy in his argument can slip by if you are not careful. As a philosopher and a trained philosophologist (one who studies philosophers and their philosophies), I have learned to see fallacies that other people let pass them right by, as it looks like you may have, Stephen.”

As well as some posts by others on the same day, stating how long they had been researching something, and it seemed to me that you were both trying to convince us to believe you blindly just because you carried a title or had been researching it for a while.

I have reread this now and it doesn’t strike me the same way as it did before. As for me giving facts, I have been careful in my statements to try and sound like I don’t have the answers, to simply ask questions or to state my opinion. You can ask me questions about my opinions, but I guess I don’t feel obliged to back them up with facts up front.

As for the remark about the GB before you and Madrone came, I would have to say that while the discussion has been heated, it is not that that disturbs me. It is more that you two seemed to have monopolized the discussion. It just seemed to me the diversity of subjects has gone down. As well, the attacks on people rather than ideas seem to have gone up. I think Maggie intended her Madrone personality to be an in-your-face-never-let-go type of thing, so that kinda fits. Again, my statements were probably tainted by my mood at the time, and I am more anxious now than ever to read you discourses, if nothing else, just to get a different perspective. Although I have to say I am more interested in ideas for walking away, and awakening people, and less about what happened 10,000 years ago. It all seems pure conjecture to me anyway. But maybe as you say, we can’t know how to solve this unless we fully understand what the problem is. I guess I just figured that we would find that out anyway as we walk away. If it isn’t working, we’ll just try something else until it does. Wasn’t it Patton who said, “A pretty good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan never executed”? Or something like that.

As for the analogy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I still think it is a bad analogy, and it seems to me no matter what argument I come up with you can still say that I am wrong because THAT is competing to the maximum. I am rather conflicted about competition. I think it is OK for communities, but maybe not so good for individuals, or at least not simply for competition sake. I see my daughter work so hard to practice something, go to a competition, and get wooped. It does not seem to help her self-esteem, or her personal growth. It can lead us to give something up, even though we have passion for it and may be quite good at it, just not better than the next person. I have an article I got about 5 years ago around here. I’ll see if I can’t find an online reference to it.


john kurmann #15040
Kansas City, MO USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 6:10:37 CST (GMT -6:00)


I'm very sorry to hear that you felt reprimanded by me in the past. I assure you that was not my intention, but I also do not want to dismiss your feelings in response to what I wrote.

john k.

michael #15039
Berkeley, CA USA -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 6:8:53 CST (GMT -6:00)

Doug, Namaste (if we were in person we might touch our foreheads together for a moment)

Peter Matthison defines "namaste" as; "I honor that place in you where the center of the universe resides,and where, when I am in that place in me and you are in that place in you, we are one."

David Theis #15038
Hackenheim, Germany -
Monday, December 10, 2001 at 5:15:46 CST (GMT -6:00)


just like everyone else: thanks for this beautiful post.

Brent #15037
Oakland, CA USA -
Sunday, December 9, 2001 at 23:27:51 CST (GMT -6:00)

Thanks for sharing Doug!

It has been the magical, spiritual and indescribable that has effected me the greatest this last year. Much more so than all the words spouted.


Libran #15036
, USA -
Sunday, December 9, 2001 at 23:17:19 CST (GMT -6:00)


I'd like to shake your hand.


Bev #15035
, USA -
Sunday, December 9, 2001 at 22:11:21 CST (GMT -6:00)

Doug, just two words.

Thank you.

doug #15034
, USA -
Sunday, December 9, 2001 at 21:14:50 CST (GMT -6:00)

I have followed for two years now some of the brightest and most informed people in the world who have direct access to heads of state and leading science and and the latest research and academic work as they consider the crisis we face now. They have analyzed and discussed and dissected and refined...with all urgency and sincerity, mind you! With sweat and tears and late nights and weeping,?? With lots of ciggarettes and coffee to be sure, anyway.

But this is the mind talking back at itself. However competent, it is on the level of the problem, and you cannot solve the problem on the level of the problem. No matter how hard you try or how long. You cannot make something out of that which does not contain its elements.

Greater energy affects lesser energy, and to create change you need greater energy. This is why changing the mind has never changed behavior and also why the religions lost their message when they became intellectual and were manipulated by the interests of the states. It is why the religions cannot get their original message back without reconnecting to their original source.

The original spiritual vision connectd individuals directly to God, the Earth, Life itself...whatever you call it. The original cultures culture supported and guided individuals in this connection. This direct individual connection was the highest power, this direct relationship of individuals to the source of life. People came from this source, they passed through the stages of life by the blessing of this source, and they went back to it at the end of life. They all shared this understanding and it gave them the expereince of a group that was One Life with a common interest much greater than any self interest.

This kept these people from destroying each other or their world and it caused them to see it as sacred and respect it without having to be forced to check their self interest or ambition. It was stable and it worked for tens of thousands of years. These were real, lusting, fighting, self interested people, not saints or angels. But they had respect for life. They would not comit holocaust or massacre or wanton crime. They carried the laws within them instead of on books and in a police force. They still do where they yet live on the Earth today.

At some point this was changed and power was taken from God into the hands of people. They stopped depending on the Origional source of life and provided their own food and shelter by manipulating the elements of thier world and developed insitutional structures with laws and enforcement to compel others to participate and give up their direct connection to the source of life. Then they immediately required written laws, the commandments, to keep them from stealing and raping and murdering and disrespecting all ideas of connection to any power greater than themselves and they had a succession of prophets and teachers who could tell all secrets and do miracles and these were all seen as a threat to the institutions of human power. These prophets and teachers were killed, imprisoned and silenced.

And all manner of inventions to protect people form the engines of great human power were developed, utopias and islands of idealism and religions of all sorts were tried to protect man from his own exploitation. Communism and femminism and capitalism and humanism and free love.... but they all were jsut different versions of man taking power into his own hands, choosing his own fate, instead of connecting to the source of his existence from the beginning.

But still the answer is very simple. It is to connect directly to the original source of life, To do it Yourself.

A mother looks at ther child and knows she has made terrible mistakes in her life and asks for help, and the room fills with a presence and she knows she is not alone.

Someone is desperately ill and reaches hopelessly for help and a warmth comes over them and their illness is taken away by what they know the power that made the sun and earth. The rest of thier lives they share this experience.

A man looks at the earth from the moon and he sees what it is, this miracle of life in a glowing drop of water. He didicates his life to preserving its sacred beauty, unable to do anythign else on his return.

A person gives themselves fully to an expereince of support and love in a close group of young friends as they worship god and suddenly he hears a glorious music and it goes on for a day and another night, and he discovers he suddenly has incredible talent and musical gifts. The rest of his life, he searches for any explanation and remains in awe of the cause of this gift.

Someone understands and knows deeply that they msut give blood, its important and it will show that blood is life, something we all share. They "have" to give blood and ask others to give as well, A week later the WTC center collapses and a nation in crisis....It only reinforces what he knows is the essence of lifes power, the unity of all life...

This source does not want you to agree to its interpretations and join its membership and programs. It does not need to interpret and analyze, it jsut IS.

This source does not want you to send it ten dollars so it can continue its good work.

This source does not want you to raise your hand and vote for it so it can report your support and allegiance.

This source has no products for you to purchase.

This source does not need you to join its memberships or fill its armies or its paradise.

This source wants you back where you were before you allowed the lower powers to supply all your needs of food and clothing and defense and support.

This source wants to take care of you so you can connect to the world through the essence of its nature, pure, unnattached unlimited love, So you can live in thanksgiving instead of compromising and corrupt deals with lower powers.

This source wants to become present in your communities and show itself to you in shared experiences involving more than one person so that it may spread to others and affect the Earth communities that are in such distress.

You cannot solve the problem on the level of the problem. These expereinces are not on the level of the problem, but on a higher level, and light overcomes the darkness. Anyone having these expereinces changes the way they live in some way, many in totally radical ways rejecting any support from the institutions of human power and refusing to support them in any way whatsoever.

These expereinces happen all the time, but the lower powers tell you they are nonsense and stupid so you will keep them to yourself and not share them, so you will be ashamed. Animals know these expereinces as instinct and follow them constantly in the wild. There is no difference between the bonds of love, the will to survive (self love) instinct and the awareness of this higher power.

Time now to choose what power we will respect and trust. Trust the powers that have gotten us where we are now, or trust the power that kept us so well for tens of thousands of years and can still help us if we will become again as little children and trust something we cannot understand, but which we can feel as nothing but pure goodness and light. Its about spitting out the fruit, pride and bowing of the head. Islam, surrender, repentance, submission and profound, prodigal homecoming. Then the feast. Thanksgiving.

The greatest threat to this higher power is the motivation of the religious who try to control groups who make claims about god and power and the source of life as their proprietary franchise, those religious who pretend to serve the creator, yet need the support of human power structures that are corrupt and self serving. They msut be called to account to god himself and brought out to be seen for what they are and not tolerated for any reason. They are whores taking money in sacred names and are the foulest of the corrupt.

God is not given money, this is the sacrifice of Cain, a foul bribe. But the religious dont want life, they only want money and power to gain authority and greatness. Programs, membership and converts to fill thier buildings...They are temple prostitutes and serve the powers that took God away from his trusting children to gain power over them as slaves of wars and empires. They know they will be orphans when the people rediscover their god and will do all they can to prevent this.

This is my comittment, to share and expereince the solution to the crisis we are now in as connecting back to the original source of life as Jesus connected to the FAther and as Indians trusted the Grandfathers and as St Francis taught and all the great lights shared back to Able who gave of blood and not grains. As all of us do in our momnets of clarity and times of darkness...If anyone will agree with me in this I will share my expereinces with them and offer whatever support and advice I can. I will accept the same from them. And I will find ways to communicate this "Secret" with anyone who wants to know about it. This is not a plan, program or analsysis, this is an act of giving life and blood, mine. The only thing I truly own.

I know many are doing jsut the same in different ways and respect and honor all their expressions.

I ask that all of you will see there is help and accept it from a power and a source NOT on the level of the problem.

Blessings all. Even Maggie...

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