The Bnetwork Guestbook Archives: 26 February - 8 March 1997


The other day I was talking to my mother about college philosophy courses. I said it hardly seemed worth it take any one of them, because they would concentrate on the beliefs of all the "great" philosophers. "That's pretty arrogant of you!" she says to me, as she often does, "do you think you have all the answers?" "No," I replied, "but I know they were asking the wrong questions. Besides, how do I convince THEM about the RIGHT question?" Just a thought to make everyone see what a mind change requires (if they don't already realize it). Not only must you give up everything you ever knew, but you've also got to give up everything mother culture ever said, or made anyone else say. Eery, huh? Au contraire. Just consider what all those teachings lead to. If you don't know what I mean, you should see Schindler's List again. So I'm happy, as free as possible, and, if you'll forgive the obscenity, giving mother culture a great big middle finger. After all, she deserves it. Write me, talk 2 me, e-mail me, send me messages by horseback if that's your thing. I want to learn as much as I can from you, and maybe teach you too. JClancy498@aol.com
Jon Clancy <JClancy498@aol.com>
Yarmouth, ME USA - Saturday, March 08, 1997 at 20:05:23 (PST)
Daniel, Greetings! I enjoyed your writings in both "Ishmael" and "The Story of B". They have cystralized my thoughts and feelings on our society. For the longest time I had felt like the Aryan student "Kurt" from "Ishmael"; lied to! This feeling of deceit lead me down a path full of our cultures "distractions". Flirting with drugs, alcohol abuse, the "American Dream", music, sports, television, theatre, clothes, cars, sex, jobs, higher education, electonics, computers, the internet, etc...etc. (This list is not in order nor is it near complete.) When I finally tried of the distractions, I stopped and looked and listened. What I heard and saw deeply troubled me. I no longer heard "Mother Culture"s constant drooning. My eyes and ears were opened and I began to see the "signs of distess" for what they were and not for what "she" said they were. As I spoke to acquaintances on these matters, I found few who could open their minds without "her" interference. I felt terribly alone. My thoughts and feelings being apart from others I continued to try and convey my viewpoints. I didn't know if my ability to do so fell short or if my listeners were too full of their own "distractions" to care. Possibly both. I kept trying. Finally one acquaintance asked if I had read that book about the gorilla. Questioning him lead me to "Ishmael". I was relieved to find another who shared my viewpoints. Who understood that the "world of man" is not what it's about. That the world is not a part of our existence but that we are a part of its. Relieved, also, that finally there was someone who was not pacified with the "myths" of both past and present; not lulled to intellectual sleep as we lay our heads in "Mother Culture"s bossom and "she" strokes our hair and whispers in our ears that all is well. Oh, "Ishmael" was more then a thought-provoking novel to me; it was my sanity. As I read "Ishmael" lights turned on inside my mind. I was able to see into corners where unclear thoughts lie; thoughts needing to be discovered just too hidden to see. Reading "Ishmael" also gave me names and terms to apply to thoughts that were so elusive as to put into words. I was given a broader base of reference to explain my views. I quitely thanked you and continued to convey our message while waiting for your next book. The publishing of "The Story of B" brought more clarification, more reference, more thoughts to expone. Yet with "The Story of B" came a division line. I found it hard to digest your view that the "salvationist" religions of the world should be ignored in order to change the path mankind is following. Upon finishing "B" I contacted the B-network. I needed to know more about your views in this area. I went to the question and answer site. There was a "question" concerning the possible lack of attraction of others if you denounce their religions. Your reply was to the affect that you do not denounce religion rather just question it so as to provoke discussion about it. Well, Daniel, here I am. I would like to discuss God's or the god's role in humankind. I would like the opportunity to speak with you about the path of mankind as foretold in the bible, the mission given to Moses, the Tree of Knowledge, etc... We of cause can do this electronically if you prefer. I await your reply. Until then, keep teching; I will. James A.
James A. <Olin64@AOL.com>
Kings Park, NY USA - Saturday, March 08, 1997 at 16:40:37 (PST)
I just send the following e-mail on conscious evolution and wanted to share it. Please let me know what you think. Thanks! Thought you might find futurist Barbara Marx Hubbards site (Foundation for Conscious Evolution) of interest. She is creating a "peace room" where the genius of the world can gather and let others know what's working. In this way we can be exposed to the evolutionary edge as it is developing. She also is making evolutionary circle's guidelines available to interested parties. She is an amazing woman who ran for Vice President and was a friend of Bucky Fuller's-one of if not the greatest comprehensive thinkers of all time. We're all in this together and in the largest sense-there's only one of us here. When people truly get that idea-the world will be a different place. Divide and conquor was and is the catalyst for separation. What is being born on this planet through passionate givers in service to humanity is a vision and experience of the oneness we all share. The oneness of life of which we are a small but largely arrogant part. Believe it or not what we are looking at is the possibility of surrender becoming a heroic act. That is surrender of ego-control-greed and embracing being in service, living with humility and more than anything else replacing fear with love. I know this may sound like romantic idealism and that the entire drift of multinational culture goes againt these ideas but something is brewing, perhaps Vaclav Havel is right and one culture is dying and another is being born. No one knows for certain, but I think its better to be a creative solutions based optimist than a pessimist or worse a nihilist. Possibility and hope represent our best avenue to reclaim our power. The untapped creativity in this world is nothing if not astonishing. What will be the catalyst to release it? Ideas like those presented in I&B are certainly good examples. Keep your eyes, ears and heart open and you may discover small fragments around you but best of all within your own soul. Tehg
Jeff Hutner <tehg@earthlink.net>
Ojai, CA USA - Saturday, March 08, 1997 at 03:02:45 (PST)
Wow. As of yet that's all I have. I know I have to go somewhere with what I've learned, however, I don't have any Idea where to start.
Amy Herrick <herrial@lfc.edu>
Lake Forest, IL USA - Thursday, March 06, 1997 at 20:09:31 (PST)
I first signed in a few weeks ago, depressed and distraught at Quinn's vision of what needs to be. How devoid of higher purpose; of ideals, I felt. But the comments I'm reading lately are much more encouraging. Matthew S-I must thank you for what you add to this board. Your comments regarding conscious evolution (a key focus of mine), the KEV, and the like give me hope that this change we must make won't push us back into darkness. If your comments have helped or rung true to me, they have done so to others. Well done and well said. And so the message spreads.
jallyso <sjbongle@itol.com>
WI USA - Thursday, March 06, 1997 at 19:49:32 (PST)
Jamie Myxter wrote " 'conscious evolutionary leap"? it would take some serious work to convince me that evolution works on a conscious level." Jamie, I can give you an example of conscious evolution. First, a definition of general evolution: A shift from a less order of simplicity to a greater order of simplicity. It is also important to understand that all systems evolve. Physical systems, biological systems, and social systems / cultures, and individual human beings in the course of their own lives, psychologically. Since the beginning of human culture, cultures have evolved as innovations have been made, as humans have come to deal with their environment in different ways, as various ideas or "memes" have had greater or lesser influence, etc. But to this point, people have not generally been aware of the influence of culture (a system of values and beliefs which structures their reality), but have rather taken it for granted as "reality" or "the only sensible way to be." When people begin to understand what culture is and how it shapes who they are, they may begin to idealize a different culture and consciously affect its evolution. For it to be a kind of evolution that best supports the evolution of people within their own lifetimes and is in harmony with the ecosystem around it, that conscious evolution must be "co-evolutionary" and engage and integrate the aspirations, insights, and ideals of all stakeholders. In sum, once we attain evolutionary consciousness (and this includes much more than an understanding of biological evolution), we can engage in conscious (co)evolution. Not the evolution of our bodies - in case that's what you were thinking of - but the evolution of our psyches, our cultures, our ecosystems (sustainably, if it is to be evolution), and then we touch the frontier of cosmic evolution. As a final note, I am not concerned so much with averting a global collapse in the future as with the "silent scream" that we can hear today: the everyday tragedy of how so many live, without community, without adventure, without a sense of purpose beyond their own lifetime (or beyond the weekend), injustice, etc. Be well, Matthew
Matthew Shapiro <idahomat@micron.net>
Boise , ID USA - Thursday, March 06, 1997 at 18:30:32 (PST)
Damien, I'm not totally sure what you meant in your posting, but it felt kind of abraisive. I accept your invitation to read B again, carefully. I would like to invite you to share more of your insights on B and the words in these postings. I think most of us "eco-idealists" (as you label us) understand there are no absolutes. I think we value everyone's path and point of view. Take care, Brian
Brian Barth <>
Saskatoon, SK Canada - Thursday, March 06, 1997 at 11:16:43 (PST)
Just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions about hunter/gatherers for Debbie Pyrsch(spelling?). It has been well documented since the sixties that most hunter/gatherers do not work their asses off, and many of them do, in fact, live to a ripe old age. Among the Ju/'hoansi of the Kalahari, for example, adult individuals put in an average of 2o hours of work per week. This is about half the average amount of work that people, like ourselves, put in each week. How well we're these people eating considering the relatively short hours they invested in securing food each week? According to Richard Lee, who conducted a study of the Ju/'hoansi, the efforts of the Ju/'hoansi yielded daily 2355 calories of food energy and 96.3 grams of protein to each person. Not too shabby. If you want to know more about the Ju/'hoansi and other such peoples, I suggest checking out the series of case studies in cultural anthropolgy edited by George and Louise Spindler. The information on the Ju/'hoansi I provided came from Richard Lee's contribution, "The Dobe Ju/'hoansi." I hope I've helped.
Rod Huff <78691@UDel.Edu>
Newark, DE USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 19:45:21 (PST)
Given the quality of thought expressed here, it is no wonder that we're doomed. All you eco-idealists should read B again, carefully this time, and then go out in your back yard and "gather up" some bugs to eat.
Damien
Sedona, AZ USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 16:55:05 (PST)
Ever since I first read Ishmael, and now reinforced by reading B, I have looked at "the problems of our times" from a cultural viewpoint.I have always intuited that our way of living was bizarre, limited, selfish, self-serving. When Life was presented to me by parents, "teachers", church people, my deeply-felt response was always - you're kidding! Life is about "having more than your parents did"? That's it? We've inherited a clunker of a culture, as did our parents and their's and so on, on and on back to the Big Faux Pas. As Wendell Berry said, we are living among punishments and ruins. This world of strangers and money and ugliness: we think this is some kind of achievment! It's survivable if you have plenty of money, for food and shelter are a piece of cake if you have the money. And sex and entertainment and all the rest of the commodities culture. But man! what a lonely, fucked-up world! We can do better by the whole world.
Kirk B. Knighton <kknighto@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Bainbridge Island, WA USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 14:21:36 (PST)
danny , i just have one thing to say about the big plans you're making because of isma's and b's success and that is that are you becoming someone the watchers for the antichrist are not gonig to pay attention too , becuase if you sell the rights to isma and make tons of money off of it , and you get on the best salers list and you make another ton of money , maybe people'll start thinking you're just in " it " for the money.. " and we know what that means." i don't want to sound like a sour grape , but i'm starting to think you've got the tom brown jr. disease , which is get popular with really great ideas and then just fuck it up by focusing on the money and not the matter at hand.. money ain't going to buy the world another eco-system. it'll just buy you another car.... i'm not hope that you are perfect , but i am hope you stay sincere.....
neil chambers <nchambe@clemson.edu>
clemson , s.c. USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 14:11:16 (PST)
" conscious evolutionary leap"?

it would take some serious work to convince me that evolution works on a conscious level.

Jamie Myxter <Pjmyxter@aol.com>
Seattle, Wa USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 11:41:15 (PST)
Here's a thought... What if everyone were asked-What is your vision of the positive equivilent of the atomic bomb? Questions like this might open a space in our minds for possibility thinking. New paradigm thought forms are the building blocks of new paradigm actions and realities. If there is a chance for a conscious evolutionary leap, it is likely to come from unexpected people in unexpected ways. Our wildest imaginings will probably not produce the changes. One example was the shift from Communism to Capitalism in Russia in 3 days with no bloodshed. People simply put their attention on a new idea and the old one collapsed. Not that capitalism is the answer but the phenomenon of change by new models presents hope that a possibility for global mind shift is possible. Willis Harman (Global Mind Change), a leading futurist, believes we are in the midst of the greatest shift in history driven by our understanding of our interconnectedness via ecology and new physics and a shift from outer to inner authority. A recent study (New Age Magazine) shows there are 44 million "cultural creatives" who reflect eco-spiritual values. Viewed through the lens of mass media which simply re-presents the past and is a resistor rather than conductor of new paradigm thinking, one might have little hope for the kind of change Daniel Quinn writes about-the conversion of taker to leaver consciousness. But bubbling under the surface is a powerful new direction, more noble and integrated than any we have known. It is an inclusive, sustainable worldview and it speaks to synthesis of male/female-material/spiritual and all other polar opposites. It is what's best in us and it is being drawn out in an evolutionry process. It is exciting and terrifying and it is our story. Each of us is playing our part. And like any good story, just when you think the worst is about to happen or has happened, something completely unexpected happens. I believe we're in that moment. My life is about watching for and being a catalyst for the unexpected good and magnifying that in a culture where the negative dominates. I like the definition of post modern as a time when anything is possible and nothing is certain. Watch for remarkable new films that inspire people to consider new ways of co-operative living. The divide and conquor mentality no longer serves us. It's time for a change and we are that change. Just as Ayn Rand's passionate Atlas Shrugged celebrated the capitalist as a romantic figure, there are writers celebrating new characters whose shifting inner landscapes may yet help us recover our balance in a world on the brink. As Daniel points out, it is resonance that we respond to.The leaver resonance grows daily and is a powerful agent of change. Have no doubt. Keep growing. Stay tuned...
Jeff Hutner <tehg@earthlink.net>
Ojai, CA USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 10:51:16 (PST)
Dear Daniel: I read B in two days and want to say bravo and thanks. I am a friend and associate of John Raatz of the Visioneering Group and we may have met while you were in LA a few years ago. I am working as a consultant with Metafilmics, a new production company focused on tramsformational film. I will send a copy of B to them. They are producing Robin Williams next film, a love story set in the afterlife and want to develop projects that make a difference and integrate the eco-spiritual. How many copies has B sold to date? Have you spoken with or been on New Dimensions with Michael Toms? I look forward to hearing from you and to being a positive catalyst in the evolution of the ideas you have so eloquently explored. Best regards, Jeff Hutner
Heff Hutner <tehg@earthllink.net>
Ojai, CA USA - Wednesday, March 05, 1997 at 01:50:37 (PST)
Well wouldn't we all appreciate a response with wisdom Jim? I think that those who predict a massive calamity are COUNTING ON the resourcefullness of Taker humans. They are counting on us to continue our domination over other life forms, for that is exactly what will cause our extinction. This is what we learned in Ishmael. Whatever preserves our lifestyle, we will do it...genetic engineering...sure why not? I agree that the longer we hold on to the Taker vision the more miserable it will get. Survival skills, seems like a good idea to me too. Anybody interested should check out any of the books by Tom Brown Jr. Here's a guy who learned a Leaver lifestyle while growing up in a world of Takers. His life and what he teaches would be inspiring to anyone who has found their way here. Email welcome.
Paul Brown <pbrown@clemson.edu>
Clemson, SC USA - Tuesday, March 04, 1997 at 07:42:44 (PST)
Hi everyone I heard or read this somewhere and don't know if it is fact..................There is a nasty star called Wormwood in the book of revelations in the Bible that poisons all the rivers and kills all the fish... apparently Wormwood translated into Ukranian is Chernobyl.....spooky eh..? Have a groovy one, Mandy
Amanda Allan <saallan@vuw.ac.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand - Monday, March 03, 1997 at 21:06:07 (PST)
I HAVE READ BOTH I & B. FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS MY MONETARY INCOME & INTERESTS HAS COME FROM ORGANIC FARMING (140 ACRES) AND ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING. TAKER CULTURE IS WILDLY SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE IT OFFERS THE AVERAGE HUMAN SOMETHING THEY WILLING FORGOE THEIR HAPPYNESS FOR, NAMELY ____________. I HAVE TRIED TO IMAGINE A CRITICAL MASS OF TAKER HUMANS CHANGING TO "LEAVER PRINCIPALS", BUT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN VOLLUNTARY. MOST HUMANS I HAVE MET DO NOT CARE FOR OTHER LIFE FORMS (BESIDES PETS OR IN ABSTRACT) THAT THEY CANNOT EAT, WARE OR BE AMUSED BY. OUR AGRICULTURE IS FUELED BY FOSSIL FUELS (ESPECIALLY THE ORGANIC VARIETY). THOSE WHO PREDICT MASSIVE CLAMITY DISCOUNT THE RESOURCEFULLNESS OF TAKER HUMANS. WITH THE: TOOLS OF GENETIC ENGINEERING, THE WILLINGNESS OF HUMANS TO LIVE IN TOTALATARIAN STATES AND THE POWER OF GREED, TAKER HUMANS WILL CONTINUE TO DOMINATE THE EARTH'S LIFE FORMS. i know this is a miserable view of the future, but from my experience this is what i see coming. I would appreciate a reply with wisdom.
jim leuba <cncinc@cfanet.com>
yellow springs, oh USA - Monday, March 03, 1997 at 19:31:41 (PST)
read this quote the other day and thought it made a lot of sense for us B-fols "The problem with any revolution is that its promises often obscure the foundation" Put that one in your pipe and smoke it!
matt smith <smithma@earlham.edu>
Richmond, in USA - Monday, March 03, 1997 at 17:12:31 (PST)
I'm 2/3 through B and several times through Ishmail. Everyone to whom I give a copy of Ishmail is grateful. One by one seems rather tedious, though I imagine there is no other way right now. How are people giving it away in greater numbers? I'm working with young people worldwide with the Rescue Mission project. Their synergy is inspiring. Thank you for your work. dp
david pines <dpines@health.org>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, March 03, 1997 at 10:57:00 (PST)
I'm happy to carry on the message of "B". Did it somewhat for years - much clearer now ! Questions upon questions Answers upon answers.............. Thanks - keep up the good work - I will! Steve
Steve Stevenson <mesmer@foothill.net>
Foresthill, Ca. USA - Sunday, March 02, 1997 at 18:32:23 (PST)
The Story Of B was a great expansion of Ishmael. It confronted the same topics and new ones with great creativity. Daniel Quinn was able to develop the characters in The Story Of B very well. But most of all, the book itself was extremely enlightening. I await for the next Daniel Quinn novel.
Elyzabeth <silvermage@hotmail.com>
Gaithersburg, MD USA - Sunday, March 02, 1997 at 12:15:02 (PST)
ISHMAEL AND ESPECIALLY B ARE PROBABLY THE TWO MOST THOUGHT PROVOKING STORIES I HAVE EVER READ. THERE IS HOWEVER A HUGE FACET OF LEAVER SOCIETY THAT IS NEVER DISCUSSED AND THAT IS THE HARVESTING OF PRIMAL ENERGY THROUGH BODY MODIFICATION [PIERCING, TATTOOING,CORSETING, SEXUAL NEGATION,ETC.] TAPPING INTO THESE SOURCES PRODUCES A STATE OF MIND THAT IS CONDUSIVE TO CHANGED THINKING. IN MY OPINION THE RECENT TREND IN BODY MODIFICATION SHOWS THAT MY GENERATION (X) IS IN SEARCH OF THE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS THAT WE DON'T EVEN KNOWINGLY ASK. THIS TREND IS ALSO SHOWN IN THE PUNK AND RAVE SCENES. PEOPLE ARE BANDING TOGETHER IN A TRIBAL ATMOSPHERE AND THE PARTIES ARE [ TO THOSE IN ATTENDANCE ] VERY SIMILAR TO SOME TRIBAL CEREMONIES ALMOST A RAIN DANCE FOR A TAKER CULTURE. I AM HOWEVER DELIGHTED AT THESE TRENDS TO A MORE TRIBAL CULTURE. WITH THE SHEER AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE GOING INTO BODY MODS WITH AN OPEN MIND PARTS OF OUR CULTURE ARE CHANGING AND WE AS THE YOUTH OF TODAY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO OURSELVES AND TO OUR PLANET TO CONTINUE THESE CHANGES AS WE EVOLVE INTO MODERN PRIMITIVES.
TOM BLACK
ST. LOUIS, MO USA - Saturday, March 01, 1997 at 18:54:55 (PST)
I have no net address, please make contact with me "the old way"! WE need to do SOMETHING to promote B in our lives and the world. Please write!
Steve Allman <PO Box 155>
USA - Friday, February 28, 1997 at 10:16:57 (PST)
I've read I and the essays in B.....great, wonderfulness that could use a slightly faster medium of expression.......i know there's a chat room called #ISHMAEL on the dalnet IRC network (download mIRC from www.mirc.com).....but it would be so easy to set up a telnet client through this website or even an on-website chat server.....it takes up little space....modification is no prob....but, if anyone wants to discuss B or Ishmael with me, pleez feel free to email me....i will definately respond.....and, everyone, learn your survival skillz, k? laters
drewby roberts <mugget@geocities.com>
owosso, MI USA - Friday, February 28, 1997 at 00:19:00 (PST)
Ismael and B are great, great, great. Net junkies type at 100 mph hence the spelling errors. Chill out.
Ron
Denver, USA - Thursday, February 27, 1997 at 15:03:43 (PST)
Read Ishmael then B.. going to teach this in a class through our local Community Education Program. I also am Sub teacher at local schools.. I intend to introduce I and B. What is truly remarkable about I and B is that a paradigm shift in conciousness is in process, also this medium of the 'WEB' is going to be the vehicle to administer this change. I also noticed that many responses have a great many spelling errors.. yes,yes picky picky... however when I let my spelling slide then I have taken the "easy way" and pretty soon we will have English Ebonics! Thoroughness to detail leads to thoroughness of thought and expression. Sail on!! rn43@execu.net e-mail welcome!!
Robert Nicholas <rn43@execu.net>
Boise, Id USA - Thursday, February 27, 1997 at 14:58:07 (PST)
This is my first DQ book. Very thought provoking
Dennis W.T. Kelly <dentomk@juno.com>
No. Kingstown, RI USA - Thursday, February 27, 1997 at 13:32:55 (PST)
The Story of B was outstanding!
Aaron Miller <aamiller@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
West Lafayette, IN USA - Thursday, February 27, 1997 at 13:22:28 (PST)
Other species dependent on us? You must be kidding. Some intestinal bacteria? A few head lice? Marissa
Marissa
Kirkland, WN USA - Thursday, February 27, 1997 at 07:13:01 (PST)
I am very disturbed by the thoughts that the fire of life is insignificant....it may be, but as a possessor of that fire I am very unwilling to give it up. On another point, the passing of humans into oblivion may not be that big a deal in the Big Picture, but many species *are* dependent upon us, and our disappearance out of the lime light will probably devestate the world ecosystm. Life will survive, but it's not our place to be consciously responsible for the deaths of other species. One of my favorite B points is that man should not and cannot decide what lives and what dies.
Q <quinnmj@whitman.edu>
Walla Walla , WA USA - Wednesday, February 26, 1997 at 18:46:43 (PST)
Theelin -- It seems unlikely that humans, though fairly numerous, "would take the earth with it," on our way out. I suspect that the earth's orbit wouldn't be much affected by it at all, in fact since our molecular mass would remain -- and the fire of life would continue to burn in some fashion, don't you think? And if I read DQ correctly the suffering of individual members of a species in the evolutionary process isn't very significant. Probably the coming large evolutionary downsizing of humans will not make them extinct, just less numerous by several billions so that the remaining examples will be more easily tolerated by the larger community of life. I think my issues are relevant to DQ's works (I've read them all). My point is that if this is a mechanical universe, then even the Deer People's, "sense of themselves and their place on the planet" is a biochemical oddity. One that perhaps is more like ly to be evolutionarily stable, but just a bio-chemical artifact none the less. So my point is that I don't agree with DQ's imbuing the leaver cultures with some special significance, if he comes from the perspective of holding the universe as mechanical . In one sense (and don't get me wrong here because I respect what DQ has done very much and have gained much to think about) he is trying to "have it both ways." At any rate, thank you for your comments. I think Matthew is correct about (my) not hogging up the B-Board! Regards...... Aeolian
Aeolian <Aeolian@concentric.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 26, 1997 at 14:22:28 (PST)
Aeolian and Matthew S., I've been following your discussions and felt compelled to make a point. I'm assuming that you've both read "B", or at least "Ishmael", yet you are still both approaching the subject of man's relation to the universe from distinctly Taker viewpoints. Even though they seem to differ, the arguments of man's existence as either s ubjective (man has destiny) or objective (man is no different than anything else in the universe, therefore of no consequence) are mute in terms of Quinn's ideas. Leavers know that they are different from everything else in the universe, yet also intertwined with everything in the universe. Remember the metaphor from the book about the "deer people". They know that their place in the world is important to the world , and that everything in the world is important to them. Everything affects everything. To use a Buddhist phrase (even though Buddhism is Taker-oriented): as above, so below. Humans do have a place in the universe. The human place. Just as Maple trees have a Maple Tree place, and eels have an eel place. How we (humans) got here (inside the universe), is intellectually interesting, but that concept means nothing without the pro cess of intellect. In fact, concepts mean nothing without intellect. It is this gift that makes us uniquely human. Period. We're here, and that's what matters most of all. To address Aeolian's comment that if humanity's place in the universe is inconsequential, it doesn't matter if it goes away: as a semantic concept, this is very logical. But from a universally holistic approach, it would be calamitous, and from a humanist ic approach, it would be devastatingly horrific. People won't just go away, my friend. They will suffer tremendously on the way out, and affect all processes on Earth as it does. If we deteriorate, we'll inevitably take the Earth with us. Consuming our wa y into oblivion suggests draining Earth's resources - the plants, the animals, the air, the water...in this paradigm, would man's disappearance matter to Earth?
Theelin <cutlerr@hcc01.babson.edu>
MA USA - Wednesday, February 26, 1997 at 13:47:27 (PST)
no real comments just yet..i'm still digesting what ive read..well, how-about this: im an artist, or at least a traveler toward that destination and i have been for the last several years been attempting to seek out what i refer to as the original stor ies, or myths of as any world cultures as possible. i have hopes of finding within these original narratives some common threads that i would be able to apply to my work and the messages that i felt need to be shared. it was initially bill moyers and joes eph campbell who got me on this track, way back in the day. however since reading ishmeal and b i have felt like a small boy with a mouth full of candy unable to say one intelligable word. so i chip away at my work one kernal of wisdom at a time and send copies of the books to friends and family, ok im about outa space, so as soon get a little bit futher along in my journey ill share stories wisdom or imagery until that time ill just draw, paint and make prints and curse quietly to my self -mz
amze emmons <ajemmons@theonramp.net>
columbus, oh USA - Wednesday, February 26, 1997 at 06:42:49 (PST)