The Bnetwork Guestbook Archives: 12-26 July 1997


Alrighty marc.. I finished your post,, Very nice indeed.. Very thought provoking..It stoked the fires of "B" in me a bit.. I need that now and then.
You asked for advice on which book to reccomend first.. Well, I do it differently for each person I meet. Those who I feel are not ready or open to the blunt message of B I reccomend Ishmael. I feel that it is a bit more sugar coated and may help some grasp the ideas without stirring up the wrath of Mother Culture too bad in them.. If someone is farmiliar with some concepts in Ishmael, I reccomend B.. I often Find people who will tell me when I ask that they read Ishmael years ago. And thats it.. They just read it.. They tell me t was nothng new for them.. But I think that they didn't want to hear the real message..So I offer to buy them "B".. As it shakes the foundation a bit more than Ishmael...
I do like your ideas and what not on community living and the new vision.If everything works out, I can envision a time of mass change, when Lifestyles are changed, but not dropped, and where communities are formed and values taught to children.. Not Values in the classical sense, or what Republicans speak of, but more like the value of Food, and brotherhood, and learning about resources, and about the other animals that coexsist within the community.....etc....
Then I can envision a time when many different communities turn into more permanent societies, as unique and diverse as the other, but still linked through different bonds.(what, I do not know...) Societies developing a distinct culture of their own, with no domineering culture imposing rules or trying to set standards, or trying to influence the other.
This is just some of the things that come to mind when I ponder the problem ahead of us..
We MUST remember that there is no right way.
We must keep that in mind because that kind of thinking is ingrained in us.. Its drilled into us, and we could forget that there doesn't have to be one right way to live, or exsist, or one right kind of rule..
If we don't keep that in the forefront, then we may go back to the old ways.. The idea of "no one right way" applies to almost everything(in my opinion) Including the way we go about chamge, whether it be personal or global... But some will say, NO, you have to do it this way, the way of the majority, if its going to work...We have to watch out for MC's sneakiness.. ya know??
Marc: I also agree with you in that we have to dramatically decrease food production.
. We(as a speices) might be a bit thinner, but we can still live satisfied with less total food production..People may have to suffer.
But as a speices, thats the price of survival....So I agree that things will get hard for awhile.. But I think we(as a speices)
can do it....
Any coments, suggestions?? Wanna share ideas? Reply here or e-mail me.. I will be home in two days to answer you.. Bye!

Kurt Finguerra <kfingu01@sprynet.com>
USA - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 19:25:16 (PDT)
Even though I have yet to finish the below post, I would like to thank the author for taking the time to put so many ideas down..
I would love to "talk" to you via e-mail.. so when I get back to my computer(in 3 days)... I'll write you, or you write me now... anyway,..
Ok... One thing... did you want so many copies of your comment on the guestbook??
There are many copies of the same thing... So... Maybe we should remove some of them..
Whadaya think Alan??
I would like to give a thumbs up to this sites webmaster Alan Thornhill, for his contributions to this gathering place for us "B:.. We now have many ways to meet others, and share and express ideas. Lets use these resources!!! Keep it up!
Ok... enough of that....
Thats all I wanted to say today, and I better stop typing now, or else I will end up writing an epic(which I tend to do)...Please contact me if you want to chat about the ideas in B and ishmael...
Goodbye, and may the fire of life surround you!

Kurt Finguerra <kfingu01@sprynet.com>
Bend, Or USA - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 14:08:53 (PDT)

This has, obviously, been taken care of...Alan


Warning - this post is rather long. It seems to me this forum begs for a newsgroup. I haven't seen any mention of creating one, but I think it would be a good idea.

My introduction:

I was turned on to "Ishmael" a few months ago by some friends who were discussing it amongst themselves, although they told me I probably didn't need to read it. That comment in particular got my curiosity up as much as anything else, so of course I chec ked it out soon afterwards. I guess they were trying to tell me they thought I was already on to some of these ideas myself, but Ishmael certainly changed my perspectives on them.

Now I've just finished "The Story Of B", and while I do not feel ready to say "I am B", and am clearly not the same as I was before. I will be trying to hunt down a copy of "Providence" (this one doesn't get talked about much here - I assume it is about Quinn himself and is categorized as "non-fiction"?) while I await the release of "My Ishmael", although I kind of wonder how much I will find new.

This raises a question: having read them in the order they were written makes sense to me. It seems to me that "Ishmael" is not unlike the first few lectures of B's circuit (breaking ground), whereas "The Story Of B" is rather more like the later ones (e nough review to reach those who missed the first few, plus new material). I am wondering if those who read them in the opposite order found "Ishmael" helped explain further some of things B glossed over (the whole bit about the nature of unspoken mytholo gy and Mother Culture especially), or if "B" stood alone well enough. Obviously, I'm asking to figure out which to recommend to friends first. Any other advice in this matter would also be appreciated.

A couple of observations regarding the frequently asked but rarely answred question, "where do we go from here", while I'm at it:

I am tempted to recommend "The Story Of B" before "Ishmael", for several reasons. One is that it is in many ways a superset of the earlier ideas, even if they are not always explored in as much detail (Ishmael was more thorough and patient than Charles o r Shirin, I think). But another is that it is likely to be more palatable to those who tend to read novels - the story line in "The Story Of B" is considerably more well-developed than in "Ishmael". Someone in this forum was asking for suggestions on wh at types of stories would make for a good novel that espoused the ideas of B. I think it would be interesting to see a story that actually projected how a world that overcame the Great Forgetting and stopped believing the world was made for man to conque r might look with 6 billion people in it. That is, what the world would be like if we all became B and started living it. What would daily life be like for a gigantic Leaver culture (or set of cultures)? There seems to be a common perception that it wo uld involve actually living like modern Leaver cultures tend to live - in an absence of technology. Yet I don't think we would necessarily have to get rid of technology. Similarly, we think of the religious and "legal" systems of Leaver cultures, but I see no reason this new culture would have to adopt any such specific systems. I suspect new animist religions would develop, ones that recognized things we have learned over the years through our study of the sciences.

Such a world would no dubt be substantially different from our own. Another possibility is to consider how we might look as we started along that path. For example, imagine how a group of ex-Taker's (B's) might live in Leaver fashion within the larger T aker world. As Quinn and others have observed, you can't just take yourself out of society; Leaver society depends on its own support network. Quinn writes of a society in which everyone agrees to "donate" their servcies (his as teacher - mine would be as a musician and teacher) and claims that everyone would receive the services they needed without having to work as hard as they do now. Probably true, based on the various non-technologically advanced Leaver societies we can observe, but how to reconci le this with technology? For example, computers would probably still exist and be desirable; the change might be that we wouldn't tend to think of them as private property (everyone buys their own) but as community property, like a library. I'm not sure how well a modern kibbutz (sp?) models this situation, but it at least has to deal with some of the issues in adopting a more communal lifestyle. Another modern example is a group whose name I forget, but they operate a series of ranch communities that a re more or less self-sustaining (I know of the Sunrise Ranch in Masonville, Colorado, but I know there is another in Canada somewhere, among other places presumably). I doubt the specific goals of such communities are completely in line with a B vision, but again, they probably deal with similar issues.

A final observation: when B responds to the claim that in some cases, population has grown without a commensurate increase in food supply, his argument is essentially of the form "here is why that cannot be", but he does not offer hypotheses on what reall y happened in those cases. The answer seems obvious enough to me: there was already way more food than necessary. Consider the box with 100 mice in it but enough food for 1000. After some time, there will be 200 mice in the box. Now cut the food suppl y back so that there is only enough for 900 mice. After a while, there will be 400 mice. Less food produced, but more mice. The lesson here is that it if one wishes to reduce the population, it is not sufficient to merely reduce the amount of food prod uced; one must actually reduce it beyond the threshold of what is necessary to support the current population. Given that distribution inequities currently lead to starvation in some areas even though there is more food than necessary worldwide, this sit uation would only get worse if the food supply were reduced below what is necessary. I believe it is a bit simplistic to say the population would simply, naturally, and painlessly decrease. On the other hand, it would seem to be clearly necessary. So p erhaps the first thing people wondering "where do we go from here" should do is try to figure out how to make this work. Obviously, education about what needs to be done (B's mission) is necessary, but beyond that, this is where that vision could be dire cted.

Marc Sabatella <marc@outsideshore.com>
Fort Collins, CO USA - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 12:54:42 (PDT)
Recently many have expressed the desire to connect with others who feel motivated to action after having read Ishmael and/or The Story of B -- At the moment there are at least 4 ways to do this on the internet:

1. This guestbook (obviously) -- many people have contacted others in response to their postings, and many a friendship/discussion group/tribe have been started as a result. (I have personally connected with several people who I now count among my clo sest friends...even though I have never met them face to face.)

2. The Ishmael Community was initiated to facilitate such communications: http://www.datadrive.com/ishmael/network/ -- don't let the URL throw you...this is still part of the official Bnetwork and Ishmael websites and is maintained by the same webmas ter (me). It is running on a different server to make use of some different technology. This new feature in the Ishmael/Bnetwork Domain comes in answer to the questions, "How do I find others with this new understanding of the problems , and new perspective on the solutions?" Please use this new venue to locate others, to allow others to locate you, and to contribute and share your skills and resources to this developing community.

3. The Illusions Magazine Community/Website/Bulletin Board -- http://www.mshadow.com/illusions/messages/ Illusions is a quarterly magazine started and edited by members of the Ishmael Community. Their desire is to bring together a community of though tful and insightful people who are taken with life, intrigued by ideas, and fascinated by the human condition. Daniel Quinn contributed to the premier issue and some of his work (including some of the essays at this website) have been showcased in the mag azine. The Bulletin Board is a gathering of Ishmael readers (and others) for sharing and exploring ideas central to life.

4. The Ishmael listserv -- http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jlbraddy/ishmael.html In operation for the last few years, this discussion forum is an ongoing opportunity to share, discuss, argue, and explore issues related to Quinn's work. Just e-mail is hmael-list-request@iastate.edu, and in the body of the message, type a single word (no signature or anything else): subscribe
You will get instructions in response to that request.

Alan Thornhill <webmaster@bnetwork.org>
Houston, TX USA - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 09:40:29 (PDT)
Hey again! First of all, I kinda liked Richard Kaufmann`s idea, I have no doubts that this dominating culture will end up in chaos and self-destruction, socially and environmentally. But I have faith in the gods that they`ll survive. They can`t destroy the universe!!! I avoid using the term Anarchy in negative ways, cuz for me Anarchy means the perfect interplay of energies, positive chaos, that formed this world, and I would consider myself anarchist, though far awayfrom any kinds of doctrines. Anyway , what`s all this is about is the question how to live if not like the dominating culture. I considered a lot of different ways, including settling down on an old farm, refusing the technical developements of the past 500 years and live free and environme ntal-friendly. It`d need some training in the beginning, but it`s not that hard of a thing to go back to a sustainable way of living, replacing todays threats to nature, which happened to become common culture, by community of humans within nature. With t his, tribes, or tribal forms would return naturally, it`s kind of a genetic heritage as well as language, and if you look at modern society, you`ll find tribalism not dead and gone but still alive and kicking, though it lost most of its powers to dominati ng `national governments`. Anyway, this would be a sustainable, survivable way of life, it might even survive a complete collapse of the surrounding occupying nations.But it would be a turning back to the ways of indigenous living, a society that`s "walki ng". Ishmael was about for something else, for a society that "flies"!!!That`s the vision, that`s the new, that was never heard of, that you can`t look up in the dictionary of past human cultures, b/c it never existed before. "Create a society that flies" , adding B. "with new visions instead of old programmes". A wide field for free-thinkers is opening before us, inviting us to the game of life, trial and error,experimenting, which will end in a new diversity of culture. The hard shell of the dominating c ulture has to be broken by a united counterculture, which will inevitably and necessarily break into a million pieces after succeding ,to make room for regionally different cultures( or baby cultures), which resurrect the game of life in human society. Id eas or plans for these future cultures can`t and must not be fixed in advance, it`s up to the gods what will happen, the only thing that needs and has to be done, is to liberate ourselves from the dominating culture, including occupying governments, ways of working and stuff. Returning to Anarchy somehow. Anarchy doesn`t mean to throw bombs on cops or politians or anything, but simply "don`t let them rule your life". "Think for yourself" used to be a phrase I heard a thousand times, agreeing with it, w/o really realising how deep this goes. "Do thy will and nobody shal say nay". Some guys might say NO to your actions, like cops, but this must not result in giving up your plans. If it`s raining, it`s no use to argue with the weather, you can either wait ti ll it`s over or find ways or tricks of getting along with it. Live the vision!! I think I said enough for today, yours, Alex
Alex Neumann <Stephan.Gitz@T-online.de>
GE - Saturday, July 26, 1997 at 08:21:32 (PDT)
Reading Ishmael and now B made a trememdous impact on me. It also left me feeling lost, empty and a bit alone. Everything seemed so clear while I was reading, and now I feel like I am losing the grip I had at the time. I feel myself slipping back in to the old Taker thought patterns.

I wish to talk to others who have been similarly impacted, and that seems like everyone who has written in this space. I don't want to know what to do, I want to talk to firm up and burn in the knowledge that awakened in me while reading. Much of this w e already know, we just may not want to. This knowledge is powerful and tremendous, and I want to keep it alive in me so I can share it with those around me who may not be as receptive. Let's talk!

Bob Kastelic <Kastelic@the-onramp.net>
Winnemucca, NV USA - Friday, July 25, 1997 at 20:47:07 (PDT)
I found this site very refreshing. Although I have never read any of Mr Quinn's books, I am now tempted to do so. I especially liked reading the Q & A, once I got to it. Mr Quinn's handling of the issues spoke to me of a clarity of spirit and an abi lity to rise above the muddy issues thrown in his path, address them with purpose, all without getting either party dirty.
Scott Baker <sagemage@usa.net>
Colorado Springs, CO USA - Wednesday, July 23, 1997 at 15:21:28 (PDT)
Hi all! I've posted here once before but wanted to do so this time with a bit more intentionality. I'm about to embark on a Master's thesis connecting spiritual, social justice, and environmental education, and "B" just blew me out of the water. I wa nt to use it as part of the basis for my work; at the same time, I want to be duly critical and leave room for other ideas. (BTW, did you know that Marx and Engels were playing with B's ideas way back?) Anyone out there interested in starting more of a dialogue about what this means to education, and how to keep it from being one more "program?"
Kira Sherwood <kira@selway.umt.edu>
Missoula, MT USA - Wednesday, July 23, 1997 at 09:53:32 (PDT)
Here's a book that ought to be required reading -- the author shows in painful detail what we have done and are still doing to the Earth.

The Final Empire : The Collapse of Civilization and the Seed of The Future

William H. Kotke / Published 1993

Tom Carey <tomcarey@mindspring.com>
Norcross, GA USA - Monday, July 21, 1997 at 21:55:56 (PDT)
Thank-you for teaching me and providing this website so I can advance my B education. I will show others.
Phil Schrader <dschrader@centuryinter.net>
Tony, WI USA - Monday, July 21, 1997 at 21:40:24 (PDT)
I have just finished reading Ishmael and The Story of B back to back and am left with goosebumps. I work in agricultural genetic engineering and am struggling to mesh my work with my new vision. A few weeks ago I heard Al Gore and other ag. big wigs speak on the future of agriculture, with not much to say.........Where do we go from here?
Emily <jrich2812@aol.com>
Des Moines, Iowa USA - Sunday, July 20, 1997 at 12:26:45 (PDT)
I also am B.
Emily <jrich2812@aol,com>
Des Moines, Iowa USA - Sunday, July 20, 1997 at 12:16:34 (PDT)
I also am B.
Emily <jrich2812@aol.com>
Des Moines, Iowa USA - Sunday, July 20, 1997 at 12:15:16 (PDT)
Frankly, I am more than fascinated by the extensiveness of this site, along with the large number of people who are just as enthusisatic as I am about the new vision! I am an athiest and a lover of natural sciences (which is logical for our cu lture, I guess)which is exactly I feel so strongly about the book. As for my contribution, I will be recommending these books to everyone I know in Taiwan- let's go international. By the way, is Ishmael or The Story of B translated in other languages??
All of you take care, and live the life!

Lawrence Huang <law007@ms11.hinet.com>
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. - Friday, July 18, 1997 at 11:30:05 (PDT)
Frankly, I am more than fascinated by the extensiveness of this site, along with the large number of people who are just as enthusisatic as I am about the new vision! I am an athiest and a lover of natural sciences (which is logical for our cu lture, I guess)which is exactly I feel so strongly about the book. As for my contribution, I will be recommending these books to everyone I know in Taiwan- let's go international. By the way, is Ishmael or The Story of B translated in other languages??
All of you take care, and live the life!

Lawrence Huang <law007@ms11.hinet.com>
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. - Friday, July 18, 1997 at 11:29:21 (PDT)
Alan commented below that DQ's MY ISHMAEL will be released soon (November). I thought it might also be pertinent to mention that a good-sized excerpt from MY ISHMAEL will be appearing in ILLUSIONS Magazine about 30-45 days prior to that, so for a snea k preview, you might want to check it out! Visit the ILLUSIONS website at www.mshadow.com for more about the magazine.

Lance

Lance Pierce <LancePierce@msn.com>
Oklahoma City, OK USA - Friday, July 18, 1997 at 07:32:04 (PDT)
I definately thought that B was the student in the book Ishmael. I didn't even consider that he wasn't until I read these comments?!?
Lisa Tidrow <rtidrow@fix.net>
Paso Robles, CA USA - Wednesday, July 16, 1997 at 23:37:34 (PDT)
We all need a new vision, and this is a wonderful place to start!
Shawn Tolle <sttrek@rof.net>
Carbondale, CO USA - Wednesday, July 16, 1997 at 22:41:00 (PDT)
I was excited after reading "Ishmeal" and ecstatic when I began reading "The Story of B". It seemed to be all the explanations I had been looking for. The idea of 'evolution' is kind of shaky in my mind. I am not, though, disagreeing that species ev olve, I certainly think they do, mentally and physically. But..when God capitol G created us we were (2) of the human race. This... this meaning the human race as we are now... was not what he had in mind. Once we ate of the tree of good and evil and rea lized what was good and what was not..something we were not capable of hadling, something we were not meant to handle, we began our escalating downfall. I beleive we are too far along now to have a global "remebering". I read "two generations to go until extinction". Yup. I Maybe even a little less time unfortunatly. The signs are EVERYWHERE. On an opposite, positive note...I am glad I read in this site that there is a sequal to "Ishmeal". I am also excited to read that.
Melissa <famcar@together.net>
VVT USA - Wednesday, July 16, 1997 at 12:08:37 (PDT)
Having read Ishmael and The Story of B back to back just in the past few weeks, I am still too stunned to make any intelligent observations. My only response at this time is "Yikes!" But that's a "Yikes" with a smile. I will be reading how other edu cators have incorporated Ishmael into their teaching, but I suspect I will be able to come up with some inovations of my own, as soon as the shock wears off and I can put it all together. For now, just...thank you!
Robin D. Andrea <randrea@aone.com>
Astoria, OR USA - Wednesday, July 16, 1997 at 06:16:57 (PDT)
Need the material in children's language and format. It is hard enough to convey the message to those who have heard only Mother Culture. Our hope is in helping our children understand.
Is DQ writing "Baby B?"

Carol Oberaitis <coberaitis@aol.com>
Marthasville, MO USA - Tuesday, July 15, 1997 at 18:56:53 (PDT)
Is this a forum? If not, where? Like to discuss refinement of the B teachings. First, am I in ignorance, or does Ishmael add to the consciousness of B? Haven't had time to read. The difficulty I see, from the Enneagram viewpoint, is that only a small p ercentage of the population will be able to convert how they live. The limitations include Personality Types, no doubt, as most types, and thus the great majority, won't go for it! Also, there will be logistical limitations for those who would convert t heir way of life. With the population mushrooming, it's a losing numbers game. We need faster and greater change. A new World View, on how to get along and love one another. I like how the Democratic administration is moving, they seem more inclined to a direction of world peace than would the Republicans.
Tom <Enneac582@aol.com>
Ca USA - Tuesday, July 15, 1997 at 01:13:34 (PDT)
Thanks DQ for planting a seed that is now bearing fruit. I hope that all reader's will venture beyond your books; treat as an omen, and follow all that follow. If I may tho gripe: Rather than focus on changing the world, or the consciousness of the culture, focus on yourselves: The problem is not "out there" nor does it lie with "them". Consider what you eat, and from where your food comes, and whom do you indirectly support by so eating. Consider how you use energy, who suffers for your use and who stands to gain. Consider each mundane day-to-day act of consumption, and thus what part of our culture you support by your consumption. Consider what part of each gram of earthly substance you consume is returned to the earth. Change your own life s uch that it supports the cycle of life. If you can change how and what you consume, the rest will follow; it lies within, not without. Rush Limbaugh et al live off the excesses of our consumption. If I may offer but one suggested reading: "The Unsettli ng of America" by Wendell Berry. This book, on the face, contradicts B's message on agriculture. But you will find it holds part of the answer to the question one asks after reading B: So what do I do now?
Mark Jokerst <jokerst@pacbell.net>
Martinez, CA USA - Monday, July 14, 1997 at 22:28:18 (PDT)
Continued...the enneagram may be researched on the www, albeit not extensively (I can't access Enneagram-net.com?), and a long list of books is available at www.amazon.com, keyword enneagram. I highly recommend the authors Palmer, Riso (Personality T ypes-great), and the best work in my opinion, My Best Self, by Hurley/Dobson.

thank you, Daniel Quinn, for your incredible insight. If Enneagram-type work can be done on a widespread scale, the work of B will happen automatically. Please feel free to write, Kurt. Or anybody else.

Tm <Enneac582@Aol.com>
CA USA - Monday, July 14, 1997 at 13:31:19 (PDT)
Kurt, and anybody else: thank you for your response. First, the Enneagram is an ancient system of classifying personalities, but much more than that. It is a way to understand WHY you are who you are, who you are, why you do what you do, and how you ca n achieve happiness in today's world. That is a gross oversimplification. I have had the luxury over the past year of really studying and thinking about it. It works! One problem is that it strikes you negatively at first, and you need to forgive yourself for being yourself and forge ahead. You will see that everyone has this same initial problem, that everybody's being can be understood and forgiven, and the end result is love.

I believe that B is not doable in the state the world is in. To go back in time, to recreate the tribal atmosphere, seems to require cataclysmic changes, lots of deaths, to achieve a state of global equilibrium with the Law of Life. We are beyond that. I like B, in that it, like the enneagram, shows WHY we are the way we are. However, the E does not attempt to go back in time. Rather, it seeks to allow one to function as they are today as effectively as possible. I see this as a New Age type of change i n consciousness, without the metaphysical stuff that is hard to accept for now, if ever. I could forsee a world where all people are loving, well rounded, casting off the compulsions which cause the prevalence of the Seven Deadly sins, plus fear and decei t. These "sins", if you will, are the basis for the disfunctional behavior of mankind. The Great Forgetting is a result. To bring us to a new level of awareness and love for all will allow us to co-exist respectfully on this planet.

Without this understanding, people are doomed to revert to their failings upon undertaking the suggestions I have seen. Their compulsions will resurface.outofroom!

Tom <Enneac582@AOL.com>
CA USA - Monday, July 14, 1997 at 13:25:03 (PDT)
I have two books I would like to suggest for those interested in reading more about leaver cultures.
Mutant Message Down Under by Marlow Morgan
Wizards of the Upper Amazon by F.P. Lamb
Also you might like a site (Eclectic Animism Page) I found trying to undestand more about animism.
Correction to my message last night it was late.(glucagon)

Scott Sheppard <zonemaster@cyberus.ca>
Ottawa, Ont Canada - Sunday, July 13, 1997 at 18:51:23 (PDT)
Hi all

This is a new guestbook script that is a bit friendlier - you can now add spaces in your text (paragraph breaks) just with an extra "carriage" return, and yes, you can use html - but don't get obnoxious or I will start exercising my line-item-veto option! I do not edit or censor anyone on this guestbook, but this space must remain useable by all and free of advertisements.

Anyway, other new things…
  1. Have you seen the developing Ishmael Community? Check it: http://www.datadrive.com/ishmael/network/

  2. Have you checked out the Q and A area lately? New questions and responses are added weekly at http://www.datadrive.com/ishmael/qa/

  3. DQ has just finished the sequel to Ishmael, called My Ishmael -- a REALLY outstanding follow-up to Ishmael. (I read it in one sitting, and was satisfied that DQ had, once again, stretched my brain in ways I didn't know it needed s tretching! How does he keep doing that?!) Look for general release the first of November and a booktour shortly thereafter. Can you expect new website stuff to correspond to the release of this, DQ's latest efforts? But of course!
Bye for now…

Alan (the webmaster)

Webmaster <at@ishmael.org>
Houston, TX USA - Sunday, July 13, 1997 at 15:25:05 (PDT)
I have a proposition to make which I expressed earlier,but I titled "How?" which sounds like a question rather than a proposition, so you might have not read it. My proposition is that hoping people will change on their own is wishful thinking. I think that since the world is heading toward cultural collapse anyway, if we can bring it on before the environmental collapse, then we will be okay. If we can provoke the anarchy, then people will naturally form into gangs with different views on how to fix our world(there are so many different groups today anyway). After fighting, and being forced to live off the land, they will evolve into tribes, and after a few ge nerations, it will begin to be like it was before the great forgetting. I know it sounds brutal, but it is the only way I see that can work. Think about this and send me your opinion about my proposition.
Richard P. Kaufman <RLWY38B@prodigy.com>
Herndon, Virginia USA - Sunday, July 13, 1997 at 08:58:16 (PDT)
Fascinating a great follow up to Ismael.Although I found Ishmael more surprising.Probably because I didn't know what to expect. We will make a difference if we change our thinking one person at a time,the only one we can change is ourselves. I read a few e-mails that suggested we adopt a vegan eating style. In my opion this is part of the Great Forgetting,we evolved as hunter-gathers living on meat leaves and berries we are omnivores for what appears to be a couple million years.Our hormonal systems are based on this.This diet balances our insulin-gulcagon and in turn our eicosanoids the quick acting hormones that controls so much of our cellullar communications.We have become eaters of hamburgers fries and coke spelling disaster driving our insulin side putting us in a imbalanced postion which has led to excess fat accumulation and type II diabetes proliferation.A vegan diet on the surface seems good for the planet using less energy to get food but this isn't the best for the physical body w e are inhabiting.As well we add to problem of an over populated planet more food more people.
Scott Sheppard <zonemaster@cyberus.ca>
Ottawa, Ontario Canada - Saturday, July 12, 1997 at 22:14:31 (PDT)
Tom.. I must ask.. whats is enneagram?? Maybe I would better understand your point.. But besides that, I have some fundamental disagreements.. First I'll state my agreements. I agree that we need to change minds.. You didn't use those words, but I thin k its kind of what I'm thinking..WE need to have a new vision.. You can call that what you like. I feel that a spiritual shift is not an integral part of the change...At least not in the "new age" sense of the word...I don't beleive that one mode of think ing, or one sort of spiritual awareness will change things.. True a combo of things would be benificial, but what, I do not know.. Secondly, concerning losing faith... well, Its not really a faith.. sure some of us might get disenchanted(I know I do), but if the message is truly your own, then It can withstand the letdowns.. We are just beggining all this change.. We are the novices if you will... The only clues on how to live come from the indigenous tribes.. and what they have shown(and what you surely have heard in DQ's books) is there is no ONE right way to live....So those of us B are kinda like infants in many respects..What we are realizing and what DQ has exposed is a t ruth that if, like you suggested, dissapeared cuz a lack of faith, would surely resurface... But the whole point of our urgency is that by then it might be to late.. It will be too late if we wait for the scientific community and the political community t o admit we have exceeded our carrying capicity in many parts.. And it will be too late if we wait for the scientific community to announce that food production is the problem here, concerning the population explosion. But these conclusions would eventuall y be reached by these communities.. The facts are there right now, but people are unwilling to admit to them, and too afraid to announce them.. Or more likley the taker pride is not willing to admit defeat.. But the facts of our situation are out there. D Q has taken a chance, and put that info out there for us to see, and study, and discern, and come to our logical conclusions about. I can't lose faith in fact... Since i seek out truth, and expose it, I can not lose faith in it. Truth is not like a faith .(I'm not going to get into this philosophical territory unless you e-mail me about it.. ya know, concerning empiricism and what not.).I'm not saying that I know for 100% that everything DQ says is right.. What I am saying is that the truth he speaks conc erning our predicament, and the immediate attention needed is valid.. What he says concerning our cultures blindness to the truth is true. How he speaks of our unquestioned assumptions, that is true.. I am still figuring out what my role is..And so on...all of us will have different roles.. not some universal role that fits neatly with the new age movement....I am in my infancy as B.. I am learning to B(pun intended! :-).... Again I agree with the below post concerning changing minds.... I disagree with it being a matter of keeping the faith.. It sure took me a long time to get that out there! Bravo to those that finished this.. And please write with questions comments sugges tions, and Tom, please tell me about emmeagram so that I may better understand it.. thanks!
Kurt Finguerra <kfingu01@sprynet.com>
Bend, Oregon USA - Saturday, July 12, 1997 at 22:04:40 (PDT)
The key to living in harmony will be changing the consciousness of the world's peoples. You cannot force humans to become B, and most will not understand nor accept having to change from a worldview that they can take whatever they want, and it will be ok. As long as you have unhealthy but outspoken minds like Rush Limbaugh proclaiming the Spotted Owl is a nuisance, and there is no global warming, you will accomplish nothing. the answer is a New Age approach to find the soul of modern man, and reveal i t to all. Only when it is commonly accepted will youhave a chance. The enneagram is the best way I have found. I rank it above the revelations of B in my evolution. A combination of B knowledge and Enneagram approach to soulfulness would be a powerful to ol for change for the better. Small enclaves of Bs without this selfawareness will be doomed to failure, as the members revert to the pull of their inner compulsions, and lose faith in B.
Tom <Enneac582@AOL.com>
CA USA - Saturday, July 12, 1997 at 18:48:52 (PDT)
I have not yet finished "The Story of B" but what I am reading is quite possibly the revolution of the revolutionaries and the anti-revolutionaries. As B states the only thing holding us back are politicians who tell us the world still belongs to us. I have read Ishmael which is a little bit easier for "the masses" to grasp. In fact it was asssigned reading in my 10th grade High School English class. But we have yet another adversary. In my class people constantly attacked me for "taking that book too seriously." The words of rock bands are not the revolution. Ishmael and B's words are the insite of "The Revolution" Peace, Love and Empathy Roy J. Burks
Roy J. Burks <redturbo@napanet.net>
Napa , California USA - Saturday, July 12, 1997 at 18:45:47 (PDT)
So glad somebody else, in this case Daniel Quinn, figured out what some others of us have felt/known for a long time. Thanks to him the message is now getting out. Marketing is quite different from conceptualizing. Thanks, Mr. Quinn, for doing the h ard work.
Joseph Pia (Joe) <jpia@pia.roc.servtech.com>
Rochester, New York USA - Saturday, July 12, 1997 at 13:35:52 (PDT)