The Bnetwork Guestbook Archives: 9 Oct-8 Nov 1997


It's great to see so many people writing in and participating in discussions, sharing thoughts, and feelings, and experiences in spreading the word on Taker culture.
We just had an election for governor here in VA and I didn't participate in the vote, mainly because I didn't see any point to it. What difference is there WHICH Taker cog is slipped into the machinery? The candidates are like two sides of a coin that isn't legal tender in the real world...
One kind soul who saw a post of mine many months ago (a man named Tom Machinchick) recommended to me a set of books by Tom Brown Jr., a noted outdoorsman. I've read about a half dozen of them now, and intend to find the rest and read them as soon as possible. Then when I have the money, I'll attend one of Tom's wilderness survival courses in New Jersey. The reason I mention this here is because the experiences Tom Brown has had, and the philosophy he teaches, is EXACTLY the philosophy that allows humans to live in complete harmony with the Earth. I feel that his writings have given me some hope, and with the world in its present state, hope is in WAY short supply.
I mentioned Tom Brown and his works because he has some extremely interesting and insightful information on the nature of religion. Tom was taught by an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf, whom Tom called Grandfather, and Stalking Wolf was given a spiritual Vision while a youth to seek the fundamental truths which connect all religions. He did find them. They are related to the purpose of ritual and the role it plays in different religions. What Tom has written, what Stalking Wolf discovered, is that the complexity of religious ritual and dogma confounds the original purpose of those religions, which was to achieve closeness to the spiritual self. Life is not a purely physical phenomenon. How can it be? The physical Self is nothing but a pattern of matter and energy, continually in flux and ever-changing. In the time it has taken any of you to read this far, the breathing you have done has exchanged molecules of oxygen and carbon dioxide between your body and the surrounding environment. Although the pattern of matter which comprises your body may be similar, it is not identical - not the same, distinct atoms - that it was made of when you sat down and started reading this.
If we can embrace the concept of Life as a pattern of matter and energy (one and the same thing as old Al Einstein pointed out), then we can see that that which makes us US must be something beyond mere physical matter. This is true for ALL life, not just the human manifestation. Looked upon as the ever-changing patterns of matter and energy we call life forms, Life is then seen as a force, a field which permeates all of existence. As a singular field, all things which happen to life, in life, affect ALL of life. There is no separation.
There was a point in our past when the entire contents of the biosphere were involved in the process of Life. Maybe not always, but the potential was there. Think about it: a carbon atom which is part of a plant is consumed by a rabbit and takes a place in its chemical make up. Perhaps it remains there until the rabbit is devoured by a fox, or maybe it gets combind into carbon dioxide and breathed into the air. In either case, it is not static, and always has a possibility to become, for a time, a component in a life form. This was true for ALL matter on the planet's surface. There was nothing which was alien to the process of Life.
Think about the world now. Concrete, asphalt, plastic, rubber, metal - while the molecular and atomic components do, in fact, in some trace way play a role in life and good health, their presence now is at toxic levels. Look at the computer on which you are reading this. The matter which comprises it is dead, locked into its present form for an indeterminate time. How much of the matter which has been ripped from the earth and blasted and chemically altered is under the same condition? A lot more than is healthy, a lot more than the earth can withstand.
As a process, Life needs to be able to flow in a smooth pattern, from form to form, creature to creature, matter transforming from water to grass to rabbit to fox to earth to plant to air, an endless dance of energy. Locking matter into inert forms blocks the flow of the pattern. Sort of like ripples on the surface of a pond. As long as the surface is clear it will allow the ripples to spread and spread and spread. But the more the surface of the pond is broken by rocks or plants or debris, the less distance the ripples can travel, and the sooner they are dispersed.
Whew! Well, if you've read this far I'm sorry for the rambling, I do get on sometimes when talking about this I thank you for your time, and I hope that my opinions (which is what they are, I have no facts... :) provided some insight, or at least a brief moment of reading pleasure. Keep trying to raise awareness, even if it does raise tempers!!

Dave Spaar <DSpaar@aol.com>
Clifton, VA USA - Saturday, November 08, 1997 at 20:34:13 (PST)
I finally read Ishmael after innumerable proddings from my mother and my brother. Perhaps I wasn't ready to read it until now. Now I'm ready to read The Story of B. Is there anyone out there in Santa Cruz or nearabouts (SF/Bay Area) that's just reading it right now? I'd love to discuss it with you.
Karyn Schultz <kschultz@cats.ucsc.edu>
Santa Cruz, CA USA - Saturday, November 08, 1997 at 17:29:37 (PST)
Come on Canada, e-mail me with some thoughts!I can't nag people to read B.I did that with Ishmael a few years ago and it was not successful!I find it very exciting that some American schools are experimenting with Quinns books as part of their curriculem.Imagine being freed of historical views at an early age and being taught to think for yourself!I attended a catholic school and as you can imagine, this was not encouraged.I want something for my children.

monique kube <cubeO.ibm>
oshawa, oonnt canada - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 21:22:30 (PST)
The URL isn't too obvious for the MYSTERYHISTORY site I mentioned below (though if you click my name you'll go to the site). Here the URL: http://www.olywa.net/mysteryhistory/mystery.htm
Dennis Lanigan <mysteryhistory@olywa.net>
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 19:00:15 (PST)
I have been aware of the ecological/cultural problems facing humanity all my life. I'm ecstatic to find so many others who share the same concerns. I haven't read any of the books mentioned here yet, but now I can't wait to get hold of them. I'm writing a novel on the same sort of themes, which I'm posting chapter by chapter on my website. I'm going to be checking back here a lot. Thanks!
Laura <shadow42@geocities.com>
Oaks, PA USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 17:40:00 (PST)
This is my first time here. If there are any chatrooms or groups.. I would love to know about them.. and get to meet the people who are not afraid to face what most people will not even acknowledge much less accept.. Thanks for being here...
Mary Ryan <m1941@idt.net>
Los Angeles, CA USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 16:54:49 (PST)
Everyone--

The MYSTERYHSTORY website is up. For those who didn't see my earlier post, MYSTERYHISTORY is an attempt to make an independent film that IS based on ISHMAEL.

Dennis Lanigan <mysteryhistory@olywa.net>
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 15:16:19 (PST)
~lots of stuff.. for those who actually think they believe in something, what are their suggestions.. sure its all nice and dandy to say you support something, and somewhere inside you, you probably think you do. but what good is that? do you have a proposal for action? are you DOing anything different from the others who don't even bother to stake a claim to your element of belief? are you any more enlightened by your claim? etcetera ..on dominion, and the preference of human life, and THE KNOW-LEDGE (edge of knowing?, a long drop off).. etcetera.. and what's the point of labeling a story, titling a story, that's being lived.. does that prepare us to move on to another? i want to hear this story's TRANSITION (where and how it can start, etcetera..), and i want to see it. but i feel like my efforts are futile at best.. and IS there a Good, and is it approaching in the eminent future? a kinetic philosophy.. sorry, my thoughts are too scattered, and i am only frustrated by this obstacle before me..
gatita <skapegoat@hotmail.com>
allen, tx USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 14:55:35 (PST)
i meant less than 25% not 75%. oops.
willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 12:01:35 (PST)
sorry i wasn't her to answer questions on why i chose to say christians...my friend who wrote the statement is a very intelligent CHRISTIAN. christians have at least 3 very wrong ideas about life.
1. original sin-basically a crock to defend or excuse man's exploitation and destruction.
2. salvation-an invention for us to escape our natural sinning by martyr of another to save us.
3. genesis's dominion-yet another excuse why we are god like "created in his own image" and can manipulate the rest of the world to work for our greed.

i suppose i chose to pick on christianity over any other organized religion because it is so dominant in the u.s. i bet less than 75% of people calling themselves christian really are. christianity is just an "i give up" religion for people that want to feel sorry for themselves instead of doing something about what is wrong. if i offend anyone, too bad cuz this is how i and many others see it. the best religion is no religion. be one with nature and in the process one is carried to the highest enlightenment.
-willyum

willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Friday, November 07, 1997 at 11:57:53 (PST)
Alex.

It certainly is tempting to sit it out on the sidelines and allow mother culture its own self destruction, but where would we go, we can run but we cannot hide. (Take it from someone who lives in one the most remote and isolated areas of the America, the takers will not stop till they have it all.)

It is equally tempting to accept the christian creed that "we are by nature sinfull and unclean" (they really chant this) rather than take responsibility for our culture. But if we cede to this dogma, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, we have no choice but to resist.

This lesson learned in your "mission work" is one which any who choose this path will soon learn. This is the our historical pattern both to resist change, and to crucify the mesenger. So when you become the community conscience you should not be surprised if yiu feel ill at ease in your own community .(just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not really after you) On the other hand, can you feel at ease allowing ignorance and greed to destroy this world ? I don't think so.

But there is a silver lining to the dark cloud that follows the lonely voice of decent. Never doubt that though your words may be returned with shouts, they have nevertheless become part of permanent mental record. And like a bad tooth in the cerebral gears, or Ghandis "still small voice within", those words keep resonating their disonant chords. The tables have turned, they may run, but they cannot hide.

Is it any wonder people react with such anger. I allways say "if you don't piss someone off, you haven't been effective". There is a great deal of power in truth.

There is something else hidden behind the lining of that angry cloud. Though it may not be immediately apparent, you are not alone. Speak out, and you will soon find that others share your ideals, though they make lack your courage. But courage is learned by example, and grows exponentially. Be the example and watch it grow.

This is how movements work, building, slowly, sometimes silently on the periphery, toward that critical moment of change, when almost overnight, what once was a thought, was an idea, was a movement, IS now the norm, and no one can imagine why it was ever anything else.

'Course, I could be wrong. But what have we got to loose. Nobody's getting out of her alive anyway. On the other hand, look at what we have to gain. There is a transendant beauty in this place that humbles poets and gods.

Lets go back to the garden, we belong there.

Jim Demko <seawind@alaska.net>
Petersburg, AK USA - Thursday, November 06, 1997 at 21:46:52 (PST)
Another question:
Even if our lifestyle is evolutionary unstable on the long term,couldn´t the "short term" of 10,000 years be still enough for a domination of the gene pool? Are there genes for being taker, or mutant?
I´m recently getting horribly pessimistic by being confronted with all these "progressive" thinkers of the past 300 years, and their uncritical perception today.
I once stated "I wanna stand aside and watch the takers fall from a distance", lately I forgot that and started trying to make fellow students see what I see. It was a mistake,I guess, but now that I´m at open war, at least my position is clear.
Aleister Crowley said something I always held to be true: "Never try to missionary, cuz if you disturb or critisize people´s worldviews, they turn violent"

Alex <Alex.newman@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Hannover, Germany - Thursday, November 06, 1997 at 15:40:07 (PST)
RussH writes on 10.23
"We can't change if we are inherently bad. Thats why our culture teaches this - so we won't change."
In responce to beauben same date
"I say that it should be common knowledge or sense that man is destined to destroy oneself due to geed for wealth and power."

When man first came into existance his destiny was to be at peace with ALL THINGS - always. To utilize ONLY what is needed as ALL THINGS do. It is - when man took part of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that our destiny shifted away from peace, and because of this new knowledge our new destiny was now to achieve complete rule over the world. And our eyes were not actually opened, but closed to the truth. How, after going for millions of miles down the wrong path, can we reverse direction to find the correct one? With philosphys such as Daniels Quinns we have begun our treck in finding the right path. But will we ever be able to do it? Or did we simply go too far?

Mel <mcarroll@massart.edu>
Boston, MA USA - Thursday, November 06, 1997 at 13:18:30 (PST)
As to why the below applies to Christianity, I invite you to read my posting of 10/22/97 on this page. This applies to all salvationist religions. It may be that since Christianity and the Christian religious right are so visible in the US, the writer referred only to Christianity. Christianity and the other salvationist religions help perpetuate the vicious cycle of our culture - growth and consumption - and help us to not change. (Also, see my posting in the archives on 8/6/97 re: Jesus and the anti-Christ). Let me know if this helps.
Russ Hopfenberg <RussH100@aol.com>
Chapel Hill, NC USA - Thursday, November 06, 1997 at 08:30:59 (PST)
Why does the below apply to christianity? I am unclear on that statement.
Mel <mcarroll@massart.edu>
Boston, MA USA - Wednesday, November 05, 1997 at 15:59:50 (PST)
i'd like to add that i don't believe the below statement only because i don't believe we have dominion over the earth. we are as much an equal part of nature as the cricket in your backyard. this statement is a good thing for those who believe in christianity or that we are the rulers of the earth. it gives them something to think about on their level.
-willyum

willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Wednesday, November 05, 1997 at 12:33:03 (PST)
i'd like to share what my friend katharine posted in the ishmael guestbook...
we as humans think that because we are given dominion over the earth we have a different set of rights, but, in fact, we have a different set of responsibilities.
this isn't verbatim so you may want to see her entry in her wording. yet another point for combining the two guestbooks.
be good, be b.
-willyum

willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Wednesday, November 05, 1997 at 12:27:07 (PST)
I recommend reading Quinn to everyone I know. Even the local Humanist society... Quinn's ideas are positive and realistic. I cannot put into words how important it is to spread the word... D


Dietrich <gerhart@webtv.net>
phoenix, az USA - Tuesday, November 04, 1997 at 23:32:38 (PST)
B tells it like It is or shows It like It is, except It is not an It, It is All: all of reality, all of truth, all of essence -- and me too.

Love (the connection),

Charlie

Charles R. Vernon <verndoc@aol..com, vernonc@med.unc.edu>
Wilmington, NC USA - Tuesday, November 04, 1997 at 04:41:42 (PST)
Greetings to all. A very plausible analysis and an entertaining book. I recommend it to friends.
Jeevan Bank <jeevan@concentric.net>
San Diego, CA USA - Monday, November 03, 1997 at 19:44:22 (PST)
i've been thinking that the ishmael reactions and the b reactions should be combined. anyone else agree??? it would be a lot easier to communicate without having to go to 2 different sites doing the same thing.
willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Monday, November 03, 1997 at 19:37:30 (PST)
An Open Letter:

I recently received the latest copy of "The Ishmael Update 1997". First, I just want to thank Daniel and Rennie Quinn, as well as Dr. Alan Thornhill and Jeanine Wilder for all the work you are doing to keep us informed and to encourage us not to "drop the ball" this time.

Secondly I am really excited about the proposed organization "FuturePositive/Foundation for a New Worldview" which you briefly mentioned in the newsletter. I am sure that you will receive many letters offering support and encouragement and I just wanted to add my voice to the group. I realize that there are already hundreds, if not thousands, of groups and organizations around the world that have the express purpose of bringing about social and cultural change. Many of them have been born out of the ideas that Daniel Quinn first presented in Ishmael.

However, I can't help but believe that an organization that has Daniel's direct support will help to crystallize the process of cultural transformation even moreso, and perhaps even accelerate it. Daniel, our reluctant hero, stands like a beacon before the rest of us, summoning us to follow him into a new world. I offer my support and assistance in this new project in whatever way you see fit and in the meantime I will continue onward with my own efforts to promote "changed minds" in the people with whom I come in daily contact.

Thank you Daniel, for your continuing efforts in trying to help us to see the truth.

John Austin <baltasar@aol.com>
Worcester, MA USA - Monday, November 03, 1997 at 09:24:10 (PST)
something just occured to me......
free trade

The URL i have provided is for Ralph Nader's publication, the public citizen.....In it you will find information on the MAI (Multilateral Agreement on Investment) treaty...this is like NAFTA with a ten megaton nuclear bomb tied to the side.

the MAI is a bill of rights for multinational corporations
love

drew <drewby@punk.w1.com>
MI USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 20:35:04 (PST)
there should really be a real-time chat forum, over telnet, irc or something....also, are there any ishmael or story of b newsgroups, cuz those would be extremely helpful as well....
lataz
love

drew <drewby@punk.w1.net>
MI USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 20:15:16 (PST)
We'd like to communicate with anyone in India who is interested in Daniel Quinn's ideas.
Philip & Susan DeVol <devol@bright.net>
Marengo, OH USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 11:43:50 (PST)
Wow! I mean just wow! The Story of B is one of the most profound things I have _ever_ laid eyes on.

The intensity of what has occured in my thoughts is that the shift in thinking is so subtle (the idea that the foundation thinkers were starting with a false premise) yet the consequences are immense.

As a read more and more of the book it became obvious to me that a descent amount of what B said was a developed form of thoughts that were just forming in my mind. I think reading that book saved me about twnety or thirty years of deep thought.

I would really like to discuss various aspects of the book if anyone else is willing.

Maisha Birchall <mmb@scream.org>
Burlington, NJ USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 11:17:28 (PST)
Can't wait to read My Ishmael.
James Clark <jjclark@sni.net>
Boulder, CO USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 07:37:40 (PST)
I just finished reading the book. Wow. I never thought anything could change my life the way Ishmael did; I was wrong.
Corey Peterson <cflake@iastate.edu>
Ames, IA USA - Sunday, November 02, 1997 at 01:41:12 (PST)
It's a start.
Dennis Lanigan <mysteryhistory@olywa.net>
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, October 31, 1997 at 12:05:30 (PST)
Everyone--
I'm here to drum up support for a movie I'm trying to make called MYSTERY HISTORY. I'd like to make a movie that IS based on ISHMAEL. I wanted to make this movie in response to a question I asked myself, "How can I tell as many people as possible about Qu inn's books?" A movie seemed the best idea. Tell a hundred? I want to tell thousands, maybe millions...And you can help. How? Tell me you can show up in Olympia to help and I'll let you know. For more information (story line, how to contact me and those h elping me make the film) look for a web site for the movie to show up soon (Nov 4-5).

Dennis Lanigan <mysteryhistory@olywa.net>
Olympia, WA USA - Thursday, October 30, 1997 at 16:39:18 (PST)
~if YOU pull a butterfly out of its chrysallis, IT will die.~

-one's ADVNENTURE begins where he learns his intuition's command is negligible conditioning, and he reaches beyond his safety blanket of establishment in effort to embrace something greater.->
ps. love you willyum & alex

gatita fluckiger <skapegoat@hotmail.com>
provo, ut USA - Wednesday, October 29, 1997 at 18:00:50 (PST)
Read Ishmael years ago, have tried to share with others--they can't get through it. ??? Still reading "B"--love it!!!

Felt soooo isolated until I found this page. Thanks for putting it up.

Daniel Quinn expresses so eloquently what I've always known. Thank him too if you get the chance.

Danielle <gudwych@juno.com>
Beltsville, MD USA - Wednesday, October 29, 1997 at 10:18:29 (PST)
i too like my great friend alex am part of the earth tribe. we as a tribe will return in a forward motion the earth to it's purest animist state. all in favour scream loud. only we will be heard, for we will be the last of the human race.
willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Monday, October 27, 1997 at 19:44:00 (PST)
The Earth Tribe
Being lost in a fake world,
I reach out for my tribe, the earth tribe
Which I know I belong to,
but haven´t seen in my lifetime
as I´ve been kidnapped by by the western zombies
at my day of birth.
I reach out for the real life,
which survived in my heart, deeply hidden,
almost blinded
by the endless night of consumerist society.
As I look out into the world
I see these zombies all around me,
with dead eyes, dead faces and stoned hearts,
cooled down to numbness,
the darkness of man,
which succeeded in darkening the earth.
I reach out for the light
Which catches my eyes at times
I see lightpeople, like buddhas
And I reach out to enlighten the world again,
steal and liberate earth and give it back to the gods,
the eternal immortal gods of dancing life
Consumerism is a dead life,
a black hole which attempts to suck in the whole universe,
to convert the living buddhas into dead shopping maniacs.
I reach out for my tribe,
the earth tribe,
free of sin, free of damnation, free of salvation.
Free Warriors, out to conquer the world,
not to change rulers
but to give it back to the universal gods of life
who animate every single atom in this world.
I reach out for my tribe,
the earth tribe,
my sisters and brothers,
living buddhas, humans, animals,
plants and seasons.

Alex <alex.newman@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Hannover, USA - Sunday, October 26, 1997 at 14:29:29 (PST)
First and foremost, I get great peace in reading these postings simply for the knowledge that there are others out there who are on this journey with me. Secondly, I wanted to share with you some thoughts from the book "Voluntary Simplicity" by Duane Elgin. "One of the biggest challenges humanity now faces is to evolve the art and practice of concious democracy in the communications era. To realize this challenge, we cannot rely upon government agencies and media corporations-these institu tions are perpetuating the status quo. What is needed is a grass-roots social movement focused on th ecologically responsible uses of the mass media. Just as the environmental movement, feminist movement and civil rights movement emerged from the frass roots, we require a citizen-based, 'communication rights' movement that seeks a fair and just use of our tools of mass communication in service of a sustainable future for humanity."

It is Duane Elgin's belief that the overwhelming bias of mass communication towards over consumption, through advertising and reliance on profit, will ensure the continuation of the threat to humanity and will stifle the creativity needed in finding solut ions. It will only be when we take back the control of these communication sources that we will begin to create the environment required to foster a new collective mindset.

Allison Sheard <allison.sheard@royalbank.com>
toronto, canada - Sunday, October 26, 1997 at 10:22:39 (PST)
I'm glad to read so many positive reactions to B. However, I'm sad to see so little advocacy of non-procreation by folks who'd like to "save the world", "be B", etc.
The Church of Euthanasia has a web site full of groovy pro-sex, anti-breeding ideas that need dissemination to fight the arrogant
anthropocentrism that dominates this lousy culture. Make Love, Not Babies.

Vince Rozyczko & Jennifer Elges <jre2@cornell.edu>
Ithaca , NY USA - Saturday, October 25, 1997 at 23:42:32 (PDT)
History tells us that every prediction made so far announcing the end of the world has been a disappointment. If even one of them had been on target we wouldn't be having this discussion. On this basis the odds are very good that the prophecies we're h earing about today are also going to turn up empty. And if even one of the current crop should eventually turn out to be right, there's nothing to discuss in any case. End is end. Done is done. Gone is gone. What possible utility can there be in fussing a bout it?
Tom Carey <tomcarey@mindspring.com>
Norcross, GA USA - Saturday, October 25, 1997 at 22:14:08 (PDT)
I am also b. Encouraging as many people as I can to read both Ishmael and the Story of B as I can. I am constantly wanting to discuss (hint for anyone who would like to discuss through email with me) and am impatiently waiting for the release of "My Ishmael"
I recieved an article in the mail from my mother the other day on one of Nostradamus's predictions. This is a prediction that in the 7th month of 1999 we will colide(or it will colide with us) a comet. Im not quite clear on whether or not this will burn up the entire population of the earth of simply the most part of it (I personally am leaning toward believing, unfortunatly, that this will be the end of the world) I am interested in what readers of this sights feelings are on this issue. Thanks for you r time.

Melissa <mcarroll@massart.edu>
Boston, MA USA - Friday, October 24, 1997 at 10:17:06 (PDT)
Ishmael, and subsequently Daniel Quinn's other books , have changed the way I view the world. The only question I have is how. But I guess that's par for the course.
It is time we start living out the creed emblazoned on every coin of U.S. mint- E PLuribus Unum- From Many one- to
recognize the oneness of the many- to recognize that we as humans are not the rulers of the world, but only a part

Matt Hayes <mdh160@psu.edu>
Glen Mills, PA USA - Thursday, October 23, 1997 at 12:39:39 (PDT)
I'm looking for reassurance of my ideals, so that the people that think I'm wrong or crazy don't convince me.
Brad Johnson <bradjohn@kodak.com>
Rochester, NY USA - Thursday, October 23, 1997 at 11:46:14 (PDT)
beauben writes below:

"I say that it should be common knowledge or sense that man is destined
to destroy oneself due to greed for wealth and power."

This is what religion teaches, that man is inherently sinful - greedy for wealth and power. This is not true for man or any other creature. The problem is not man's inherent badness, its that our culture deprives us of true wealth - wellbeing (read Quin n's latest excerpt from "My Ishmael.") We can't change if we are inherently bad. That's why our culture teaches this - so we won't change!!

Russ Hopfenberg <RussH100@aol.com>
Chapel Hill, NC USA - Thursday, October 23, 1997 at 04:55:33 (PDT)
Hey,
Loved the book although I disagree with the part about man ruling the world. I say that it should be common knowledge or sense that man is destined to destroy oneself due to greed for wealth and power. So in the process in acqyuring these riches to live i n comfort,Man will eventually destroy the earth.

Lucus and Mike <beaubien at ula.com>
stavanger, Norway - Thursday, October 23, 1997 at 00:15:22 (PDT)
Howdy partners?
As I just started studying social psychology, political science and religious science, I am almost struck down by the overwhelming power of totalitarian anthropocentrism and euro/westerncentrism in science. I am trying to make up ways to open peoples mind s to that fact, maybe through a puplic relations EF! group, or initiiating autonomous seminars on ecopsychology/deep ecology, anthropocentrism/biocentrism and the "Law of how to live". I probably need some more time until I know what`s going on in my univ ersity, but if anyone has experiences in that direction, I`d be grateful to hear about it.
second thing: Religion. It`s something like the egg and the hen, what was first, power of some people over others that led to the desire for power over nature or power over nature that led to power over people. does it matter? Power, especially totalitari an power includes abuse, no matter what, Totalitarianism as a way of mind is a whole, it doesn`t distinguish between different parts of life. The problem is not that we manipulate our environment for our needs, nor that some people are dependent on others , problem is totalitarian thinking.
So far, Aleister
P.s. If anyone has Articles on WILLIAM ROBERTSON SMITH or his theory on TOTEMISM, please send them around. Gracias.

Aleister <alex.newman@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Hannover, Germany - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 14:19:57 (PDT)
Having first read Ishmael and The Story Of B a while back and subsequently having done more research on the subject of, no mincing words, saving the world, I just wanted to ask all of the other supporters of B out there if they thought that enough atte ntion was being paid to the role of religion had and still has in our present condition. Religion, being for many such and inescapable part of life, seems to be one of the main roots of our global dilemma. Taken with the fact that approximately 95% of the earth's people believe in one form of deity or another and some form of an afterlife, doesn't it seem painfully clear that religion, in whatever form, is detracting from the actual problems facing humankind in favor of a reward in the afterlife of god's "good graces"? Religion is one of the few belief systems that, even in today's modern society, is passed on from one generation to the next with no one ever giving much thought to the consequences of its destructive dogma. Simply stated, religion takes th e focus off the grave problems facing us here on earth and turns our attention to something that, although it may or may not exist (with respect to all religious beliefs), certainly has no bearing as to whether or not we survive as a species and whether t he earth does the same. As anyone can attest to that has ever engaged in a heated debate with a religious fundamentalist, "there are none so blind as those who will not see,". Has anyone not heard of someone who refuses to believe in evolution? Or someone who is sitting and patiently awaiting god to render his fnal judgement? This is the kind of religious thought, and by no means is it limited to Christianity, that got us to where we are. This is "how things came to be the way they are". What religion doe sn't preach that humankind is meant to rule the earth? What religion doesn't want its believers to have many children? And finally, although they would never admit it, what religion wouldn't forsake this world and everything in it for their conjured-up he aven?
I welcome all correspondence and ideas.

Andreas Trolf <PUNK37@aol.com>
New York, NY USA - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 10:50:15 (PDT)
i happen to hear something last night relevant to quinn's assessment of the fall in genesis...adam was given domain over all the animals. this point is something christians and jews tend to use as a basis for believing that all the animals and all the land was created for their/our sole use. if you notice, adam is given domain over eve as well. does this mean he can exploit and abuse her, too? i think not. to have domain over meant to care for just as a parent has domain over his children. ponder this thought if you wish.

i'd also like to add that reading primal mind, by jamake highwater, and god is red, by vine deloria, jr can help give more insight to an animistic life and view.

thanks for this beautiful place to share and thanks to daniel quinn for the great words.

hey alex...i got e-mail now!!!!

-willyum

willyum <willyum76@hotmail.com>
plano, tx USA - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 10:36:16 (PDT)
Part of our culture reads like a bad novel. From the outside looking in it would be funny if it weren't so tragic. First we plant the seeds (as it were) of our own destruction by annihilating our competition, annihilating our food's competition and t hereby growing without limit. We impose this approach to life on others as our population expands. Then we seek salvation as the problems that these actions cause grow more and more unbearable. In order to achieve salvation we turn to "the most holy bo ok," the bible. We then proceed to misunderstand the first, and according to many theologians, most important commandment in the bible. Our misinterpretation leads us to perpetuate these problems whereas a true understanding would halt us in our tracks. THE SOLUTION TO OUR PROBLEMS WAS RIGHT AT OUR FINGERTIPS ALL ALONG!! How exasperating. Thanx to DQ for writing good novels to elucidate this vicious cycle.
Russ Hopfenberg <RussH100@aol.com>
Chapel Hill, NC USA - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 04:51:36 (PDT)
It was nice reading this book, it taught me a lot
Jayna Murray <jmurray11@hotmail.com>
stavanger, Norway - Wednesday, October 22, 1997 at 00:08:10 (PDT)
As I have alerted you already...on successive Mondays (OK, it's not
Monday...I was late...I was distracted...if you only knew!), the Ishmael/Bnetwork websites are
sharing seven never-before seen writings of Daniel Quinn -- excerpts from the November 1 release date novel by DQ published by Bantam Books called, My Ishmael. Excerpts!

Webmaster <webmaster@bnetwork.com>
Houston, Tx USA - Tuesday, October 21, 1997 at 18:27:24 (PDT)
Ishmael and The Story of B have completeley changed the way I think about just about everything. Share the messages they contain. Argue. Persist. Convince. It is the only way we will save ourselves. "Give me a lever long enough and I will move th e world." We are enough. We have to B.
Andrew Schipper <SchipperA@aol.com>
Alameda, CA USA - Tuesday, October 21, 1997 at 15:32:20 (PDT)
When I hand people these books, why am I surprised when they are bored?
Karen McCarthy <cscott@lilac.NHSL.LIB.NH.US>
Rochester, NH USA - Tuesday, October 21, 1997 at 05:20:08 (PDT)
When I hand people these books, why am I surprised when they are bored?
Karen McCarthy <cscott@lilac.NHSL.LIB.NH.US>
Rochester, NH USA - Tuesday, October 21, 1997 at 05:19:01 (PDT)
How can a boiling frog who has fallen asleep get out of a boiling pot? How can a ship or craft incapable of flight that is freefalling to its doom begin to fly? DQ has made these analogies to our society and I'm afraid they are good ones to the cours e society is headed. Taker Society will not survive on its own, Mother Earth will see to that. We as a taker society have ruled the earth as gods, we have denied death by medical advancments, organ transplants and in the near future cloning of animals an d humans. We as taker gods have traveled to the heavens and beyond. If we were the only ones (humans) in the universe that the taker god intended the earth for, why are so determained to explore the universe, to conquore it? I would like comments or fu ther discussion of these ideas with other B's, Thank you


david heamstead <hammerjack>
odenton, md USA - Monday, October 20, 1997 at 15:38:20 (PDT)
we are ever increasing in scope and depth its good to live in a place we don't need saving from because we recognize we are an vital part of it as are all our coinhabitants.
I agree with joe that fun is an essential element of life just ask my dog Blazer. the rest of the universe is celebrating around u s but we've taken ouselves out of the loop because we think we own it. Who talks to someone that thinks he owns them. TK
Tom Kendall <kendata@olypen.com>
Port Townsend , Wa USA - Sunday, October 19, 1997 at 12:32:07 (PDT)
I find the general ignorance of the majority of those i interact with to be an extremely aggravating obstacle to the disemination of truiths found in the story of b. given the frantic pace at which "modern" life is encouraged by the seen and unseen co ncepts, it is real hard to gain the foothold necessary to lay down the most rudimentary of foundations. will welcome feedback as to dealing with the blind.

padraig o'riaghainn <boodzy@aol.com>
Northampton, ma USA - Friday, October 17, 1997 at 18:44:29 (PDT)
This is an excellent site. I am doing a scholarly critique on the theoritical perspectives of "the story of B." It is interesting to see this site because I found it difficult to find critisism and information on the book. If so possible, please giv e me information on how to receive more reader response articles of the nove.
Thank you

Nick Groth <NGROTH@rollins.edu>
Winter Park, FL USA - Thursday, October 16, 1997 at 17:14:11 (PDT)
If only EVERYONE could simply B . . .
Barry Owen <barryo@bellsouth.net>
Nashville, TN USA - Thursday, October 16, 1997 at 15:24:20 (PDT)
hey, how`re you doing everyone, I haven`t posted anything in here for a while, so I`m not really up to date, but I`m very hankful for the introduction of EF! and address into the guestbook chat. so long, I`ll be back. NO COMPROMISE

alex <alex.newman@stud.uni-hannover.de>
hannover, germany - Thursday, October 16, 1997 at 05:49:28 (PDT)
if anybody is seriously looking for a plan of action, "what to do..." daniel quinn is right in saying that you can only do what you do... i e do what you do best. however, take your life into your own hands. live freely, dont be inhibited, if what you want is to go out and live in the woods like leavers, go do that! dont wait for the rest of society to catch up with you, do it, and leave them behind. also, a good idea in deciding what to do - read through some of the old transcendentalist writings, tho reaugh in particular. civil disobedience is an essay by all means not to take lightly, and can really help you plan a personal course of action. but i guess thats all that any of us can do.
U R U.

-b

Geoff Boyce <DTWS46D@prodigy.com>
Bloomfield Hills, MI USA - Tuesday, October 14, 1997 at 19:45:34 (PDT)


To Ishmael readers: check Gunter Pauli and his work for Zero Emission, that is an industrial system that – like nature – dont have any emissions at all since everything is used as raw material for some other industry. You can find pauli at www.zeri.org. T his is really the best try to date to make production behave sensibly. His motto is Respect nature - imitate nature. Pauli is in effect trying to make industry follow ecological laws and make money at the same time. This is at the moment – until a wide ch ange of attitude has made us do away with moneymaking – probably the only way to get industry on board a worldsaving project.

Best greetings to you all
Elge of Sweden

Elge Larsson <karen.elge@swipnet.se>
stockholm, sweden - Tuesday, October 14, 1997 at 01:25:43 (PDT)
Greetings to all who may be so kind as to read this small bit of commentary. I bring to my readings and understandings a seemingly unique perspective: does Ishmael and B explain what people do for recreation? Does it explain the longing for 'fun' and w hat forms 'fun' will take among the sleepers (including the sleeper within)? I have my own answer...but, i welcome yours, and will not share my answer here at this time; space and your thoughts are prescious.

Kindest regards
Jo B. S.

Joseph B. Stackhouse <joe.stackhouse@csun.edu>
northridge, ca USA - Monday, October 13, 1997 at 22:39:43 (PDT)
Having just read The Story of B, I needed to say that I reponded with excitement to each of the arguments presented in the book. Having, after 57 years formally broken with the Catholic Church, I have been wandering in the sunrise and on the beaches an d reading the tracks in the earth, unaware all the while that I was becoming B.
Paul C. Paquette <moospaq@aol.com>
Cambridge, ON, X Canada - Monday, October 13, 1997 at 19:08:35 (PDT)

#5 Made Public!

I have just opened the door to the NEXT excerpt from My Ishmael!

As I have alerted you already...on successive Mondays, the Ishmael/Bnetwork websites will be sharing seven never-before seen writings of Daniel Quinn -- excerpts from the November 11 release date novel by DQ published by Bantam Books called, My Ishmael .

  • "Wealth Taker Style" -- made public 6pm (CDT) 13

    Webmaster <webmaster@bnetwork.org>
    Houston, TX USA - Monday, October 13, 1997 at 16:56:53 (PDT)
    This forum provides us with a wonderful opportunity to support each other, bounce ideas around with like-minded people and receive feedback. However, I also want to encourage each and every one of us to use additional media and web pages to get ideas across to others. This forum is great but it's also a case of the ministers preaching to the choir (if you'll pardon the use of taker-religious metaphor). Let's reach out and touch someone (If you'll pardon the use of taker-corporate metaphor). Here's a letter-to-the-editor of mine that was printed on 10/11/97 in the Raleigh (NC) News & Observer:

    Much hoopla was made over the sale of Sue the T-Rex this past weekend. What is our fascination with these creatures that perished long ago? Dinosaurs may have died out because they grew too large, and outstripped their resources. Likewise, we human s are growing too large -- not in size but in number (six billion plus and counting). We are also outstripping our resources, including clean air, water and a livable earth. Are we so taken with these extinct animals because we are about to follow suit?

    I suggest we write about timely issues with a leaver spin, and end our correspondences with a question -- as DQ does on this website (are U B?) and in Ishmael (...will man survive without gorilla?). This lets the reader ponder. Maybe DQ and the webmaste r can create a page where our media submissions and accomplishments can be posted. Good luck all. Russ. (previous posting on 8/6/97)

    Russell Hopfenberg <RussH100@aol.com>
    Chapel Hill, NC USA - Monday, October 13, 1997 at 05:48:30 (PDT)
    Hey, lets sue civilizition for denying us our inalienable right to hunt and gather. Civilization has been here for a mere 10,000
    years. Our spiecies of Hunters and gathers
    have been here for 80 to 100,000 years.If there is a laywer out there who would be interested and who would like to look into this idea, let the B network know.As silly as this might sound it merrits some consideration.

    Marv Blackman <frethnkr@inforum.com>
    Diamond springs, ca USA - Thursday, October 09, 1997 at 18:37:19 (PDT)