Ishmael Community Guestbook

For those of you teaching Ishmel to younger people may I just say that I read Ishmel, My Ishmel and B and it seems to me I should have read B first.

I love all of them!

I would like to participate in starting a facebook page for members of B - my name is Tami Cash. [Is anybody here interested?]

Gwagwagwe and the hometown infoshop.

During our last council fire, you heard the stories of the K.A.R.M.A.s Golden Shower, D.I.A.L. Int., and Think Tank 1999. As you heard, the bison have been evolving, as always, from iteneret lifestyle artists into perceptional revolutionary scounderals. For many moons we have been honing our new cultural outlook based on new tribal revolutionary principles of changed minds (perception), this place of the gods (place), and people (this is our new experiment): P.P.P..

These new human-animals are much further along in the mosaic that any of the hundreds of twoleggeds we have shared our perception with. They are establishing a cradle to grave security cultural community. They have disconnected from the voice of mother culture. They are young, inspired, and willing to risk freedom to ensure that this behemouth of a cultural sucking sound is muted. Urban lifestyle artists. Before the bison began their vision quest (1999) this was not even seen in our west coast haunts. Congrats to all you "Gutter", "Crusty", Punk Rockers/ Hobo's. May the life of the Lazy, Dirty, Hippy, Commie..... aka.. L.aD.aH.iC. (pronounced Ludda/Hick). Twenty years after the bisons were first initiated into the underworld (the truth behind the spectacle), there was a place were misfits, scoundrals, scavengers, and sabatours of the spectacle could go a find like minds. The Scissortail Social Space was that place. An idea, an adventure, and an evolutionary step forward for the plains of Oklahoma (like the cow in harrah with a leg growing out of it's back: anti-tipping adaptation). The location and the name is in flux (can be found on facebook right now), but the latest core of "supporters" are meeting about the next step. We are very pleased the find another Culture of Consensus, COC.

One of the Bison Tribal Ventures has gone the way of the golden toad-people. The Gods of Concrete and Steel have cast Gwa and his band of Wobblie Window Washers (WWW) into the wind, the wind that winds the world. I think we smell too wild for those suited inhabitants of The City of Death under the Brown Clouds of Doom. The entire venture created many great adventure stories to recount in front of the council fire. It gave us another look into that meaningless rube goldberg contraption called for profit ventures. We built our "company" on consensus, we exploited mother culture and her lackeys "buisness" and the academic mafia. We dreamed of actions to expose the belly of the beast, and found huge gaps in it's fascade of stability. We laughed, sweated, and risked as equals, with each autonomous decition respected. Well, as best we could while risking our lives from above 30 feet. The end came from a combination of fear of losing advantage in a long-term antiwork campaign and pressure from inside to create a hiarchacal power structure to provide longevity. It was always meant to be a shorterm experiment in revolutionary insurrgency and espionage.

The other P^3 (Polliwog Perenial Paradise)aka.... Polliwog Produce, Gwa's Garden of the Goddess, or in the language of the taker ruins (10725 Lori Lane, Luther OK 73054) has been speaking and many ears are listening. She speaks with the community of life that is fostered and cherished there. She speaks in omen, signs, and symbols that we (and hopefully seven generations to come) read with the help of the goddess. We said goodbye to the apple-spirit and said hello to the new sandplum and white mulberry (yes it flourished after copicing). We lost stevie wonder and his hens due to the OCD of mother mary. We created our largest compost pile yet. We turned it into a tornado creation machine, then after it didnt work we created a selfsifting compost pile. We tended to the shrines and alters. We had a disney and x-mas invation, yet we marshelled our forces and fought off the interlopers. We lost all our BCBB plants, but were able to save the tomatos and melons due to the used of pots when the well went dry. The previous seasons of zeroscaping hardened the community of perenials against drought which can be brought by the gods or man's failed technology and class system (we experienced the latter, the gods brought us one of the most blessed spring/summer growing season that our edible garden/forest we have seen. The river almost doglegged again. We harvested thousands of spring/summer flowers, and took some of our more annoying plant-spirit seed into the city of doom to torture the lawnmowing gangs. Ecosabatoge on the generational scale. Johnny-Ragweed-Seed. We created a D.I.Y windmill and nuclear reactor. We said goodbye to the D.I.Y. time machine that took us into the past to repair a rift in the continnum. This place, these gods, are the place we shall cherish with our dreams and visions. It's a rural scissortail social experiment, come back in seven generations to find it works, until then as always it is a open collective. We only ask you to be able to share your skills, prayers, and council fire stories. Expand our "way of making a living" to include yourself. Or as we like to say, ' Take what you need,and give till it hurts".

The ghost of x-mas future and his hunchedback henchman GwaChe' have been working on an anti-spectacle. This tribal venture is in it's infancy, but has already created an alternative reality within the bowels of the "art-world". The Megliomaniacal Mental Meat Market Masqurade Ball (aka the M-quint flashmob dance party), The F-Art anti- profit campaign (The S.H.E.D), The No-Name symbol urban renewal project, and The City of Death under the Brown Clouds of Doom have all been the precursers to a new evolutionary precipise.

Gwa is in the last moons of a longterm antiwork campaign. It has earned the tribe a healthy roll, and has promise to be a creative revoultionary stratege. This experiment, nicknamed Consensus 2010, along with the Forest Squat of '11 could bring the beast to it's knees with only a small minority of the population participating. It's adventures are celebrated around the fire, celebrated by us as we wear our Art on our Sleeve. Change the language just enough to create poetry/code, and then scream it into the wind. Throw away the language of mother culture, ignore the spectacle, concentrate all the power of the you and me into human and nonhuman relashionships based on the place and gods under which you are allowed to take up space, or die. You will not be missed, because somewhere something is better off that you died.. Learn, Undertake, Know, and Evolve again. L.U.K.E., your our only hope.

Enough. See you at the barracedes.

Gwagwagwe member of the bison band, a small part of the new tribal revolution speaking as the horse-fly people that tear our flesh. We all have our worth.

Ishmael was a life changing story.

The words to my thoughts, the examples to my passionate discourses with friends. Feel free to get together if you are in the area.

I am halfway through the book "Ishmael" and I think it is absolultely brilliant! I can't wait to finish it so I can read it again!

I want to let Ishmael fans know about an MBA program outside of Seattle that offering an MBA in Sustainable Business.

The school is the Bainbridge Graduate Institute (www.bgi.edu).

I got my degree there and have used my skills to launch a tribal business (www.TriLibrium.com).

The school is full of change agents working to shift the paradigm.

FYI from Q and A:

The Question (ID Number 515)...

I have a suggestion for an addition to the website... How about a general discussion threaded message board to stimulate more productive conversation instead of just the guestbook? ...and the response:

There is a long history behind the decision to not have a threaded message board on the Ishmael website...(we used to have one, two in fact...) Dan once called the threaded message board a "Drowning Pool." He found that people would go in there and, with the best of intentions but little understanding of some issue, and they would start to confuse others and lead them down paths that he never intended and sometimes totally disagreed with! He and I both found ourselves (with more and more frequency as time went by) diving into the discussion to straighten people out. For example, some people with a rudimentary understanding of evolution would start to talk about the need for people to evolve beyond their current state (sometimes ala James Redfield...vibrational states...but sometimes they were talking in the biological sense) -- well this is fine if someone else is there to remind them that individuals don't evolve, populations do...single organisms don't evolve, species do. In the absence of that clarification (and often much assistance to grasp this) people with even less knowledge of natural selection and evolution would be dragged under by the first person...leading to a massive drowning that would only be rectified in one of two ways: get more lifeguards and train them; close the pool. Dan opted for the latter because he saw the entire forum as a losing battle. Open 24/7 the bboard collects drowners, and there will never be enough lifeguards to keep everyone's head above the water -- imagine a teacher's classroom filled with questioning students 24/7 -- the teacher could not be expected to be there every moment to help students into a better understanding of the topic. Any yet, this is exactly what people demand on a bboard. Bottom line, he didn't want the responsibility to watch the pool 24/7 -- he wanted to write his next book and have a life. And, the Ishmael Website Volunteers too, have a life beyond the website. ;)

The way it is currently set up it is more like a treadmill...only those close to you can drag you down, but they get shoved off the end quickly and so don't do too much damage! We do have lifeguards, and you should see their ever-presence as reassuring that things will never get TOO out of control. (If you watch, someone will chime in when someone is sinking below the edge of the pool, just to pull them to the edge.)

Anyway, check out this active discussion board: IshThink.

Note: This question answered by the webmaster.

Great book. Thanks Quinn.

Hi All--This is, indeed, a Guest Book, by format and intent. People regularly suggest that it be changed to a forum. The answer is always the same, thanks, but no. The reasons for not making a post public are: vandalism, sales pitches, spam, and extreme length. It is best to post lengthy observations elsewhere. Thanks

there's, in my opinion, an interesting complex of realities co-mingling here on this "not a discussion board" --- here on the guestbook.

i think i'm beginning to understand, a little better, the balance that is being achieved here. plenty of us advertise our ideas here, and the ideas of others. plenty of people interact, to. and yes, i dare say, plenty of people discuss things. i don't think anyone who's been here more than once would need to confirm that, empirically, this IS a discussion board.

but of course it's SUPPOSED to be a guestbook, and probably the only way to keep it even FUNCTIONING, as a relatively "pure space" where you enter your name, rank, and serial number, say thanks, and sign off), is to make sure and ASSERT that it is a guestbook only.

argument and debate are not appropriate here.

which is what makes it a good thing i'm not debating or arguing anything. just observing.

and if i succeed, if you're reading this, then that means the moderator finds my ramblings as "appropriate" for inclusion as the signatures of others: if you're reading these words of observation proclamation, then you know i'm learning, at least a little bit, about the subtle art of tact.

i hope.

wow: did that even make any sense to anybody?

onward....

ten years ago i discovered Dan Quinn, which lead to Dave D., and then to....

....Tom Peters?

what the heck? isn't that, like, a business guy?

here's a quote, from the 80's:

"...traditional VERTICAL integration is fast being replaced: subcontracting of anything and everything is now becoming the norm."

very loosely, what he's saying is that the hierarchy is actually disappearing as a functional social organization --- even when the purpose of the social organization is to sell products and make money.

the quote is from a book-on-tape called Thriving on Chaos, which is not even close to being about anything remotely resembling environmentalism or conservation (let alone tribalism).

let me provide a bit of context. tom is basically talking about how to make more money. he's talking about how to be a better manager. he's talking about how to run, start, form, shape, mold, whathaveyou... a better BUSINESS.

and he's talking about it in an era when, as far as i know, running a big business and making a bunch of money was not yet considered anything like a shameful act. i might be stretching when i say that. but just from my gut, at that time in us history, i'm guessing it was still considered man's god-given duty to develop and use the earth's resources, and build better and better businesses for the job of making those important developments.

of course, now these notions are coming under question, partly in thanks to Daniel.

so no: tom peterson was not talking about "saving the earth." not even close. but in a subtle way, i believe that actually underscores my point.

all you have to do is squint and look at it, listen carefully, and what tom's talking about is things going tribal: he's just doing it without saying the word.

literally and figuratively, he states again and again, in several different ways, that something uncannily close to approaching the circus model quinn presents in Beyond Civilization is the IDEAL for business, and something toward which we should be striving. in his book, comparisons are often made between American businesses and those of the Japanese, with the explicit instruction to emulate the successful.

Remember how we're not looking to make gurus of tribal peoples but instead to emulate their success? Well, i hope that makes sense, to fellow long-time readers.

I remember being taught, back in school, that the Japanese beat us out of a big portion of the auto market because they have what basically amounts to a slightly more tribal organization for their businesses: we were told that their companies have a tendency to hire employees for life (cradle-to-the-grave security), and that their workers more so than ours --- for some mysterious reason --- have more of a tendency toward a team mentality (throwing in your lot with the group).

We were told that they'd stay late, work extra hard, take the success or failure of the company personally, bla bla bla.

And somehow, of course, this was all spun as a negative. Like those Japanese are just robots. Like they're idiots for working hard. Like, duh: of course the American model is better.

In school, of course, i was taught that civilization --- especially western civilization --- must be pursued to the utmost degree, and utterly and forever in the face of any evidence of the costs in terms of the quality of life to the people of which it is made.

Tom: a renowned inspirational business-management make-more-money leader/guru -guy, actually literally advises that we "flatten the pyramid."

And he said it before 1989.

I know i'm not the first to say that what Daniel has done has largely been to put words to --- and describe explicitly --- something we've been groping for for a long, long, looooooooooong time.

I recently read here on this site a quip of a fable in which Mr. Quinn compares himself to a crowbar: a tool to be used. Daniel's crowbar character says "I can be put to use in all sorts of ways, but how can I possibly know which of those ways will be helpful to you? Even you will find new ways to use me as time goes on. As for me, I'm easily satisfied. All I need is to be put into as many hands as possible. The more widely I'm used, the happier I am!"

Well, i genuinely hope this gets posted. I hope Mr. Quinn is happy his ideas are being used in this way, on this site, in these hands of mine.

I'll be back soon. But don't worry. Not that soon.

In due time.

:P

Faces of our ancestors Photos of attempts to accurately depict players in our story. How did things get to be this way?

I read Ishmael a few days ago and I've been having trouble sleeping because I want to finish all of the other books as soon as I can. This is one of the most life-altering experiences I've had in many years.
Thank you.
Anne Bentham

SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT IS AN OXYMORON

A sustainable activity/lifestyle is one that will be viable for the life of the planet, one that does not threaten biodiversity. Development is a natural process that every living organism undergoes which involves increased complexity and adaptability and requires no human intervention only celebration. Birth, initiation, confirmation, reproduction, responsibility, death and return to earth to become a part of another’s birth.

Some of the dictionary meanings of the word, “develop” are: To free from that which infolds or envelops; to unfold; to lay open by degrees or in detail; to make visible or known; to disclose; to produce or give forth; To unfold gradually, to bring through a succession of states or stages, each of which is a preparation for the next; to form or expand by a process of growth; to cause to change gradually from an embryo, or a lower state, to a higher state or form of being. To advance; to further; to prefect; to cause to increase; to promote the growth of. To go through a process of natural evolution or growth, by successive changes from a less perfect to a more perfect or more highly organized state; to advance from a simpler form of existence to one more complex either in structure or function.

Etymologists are divided on how the word came into the vocabulary. It is related to envelop which at first does not appear helpful. One suggestion sees “develop” having its root in the French, d['e]veloper (the suffix, d['e]- coming from the Latin: dis-) + Old French: voluper, voleper, to envelop also from the Latin: volup meaning: agreeably, delightfully, and hence originally to make agreeable or comfortable by embracing, hugging. This is related to Voluptuous from the French, voluptueux, from the Latin., voluptuosus, from, voluptas meaning: Full of delight or pleasure, especially that of the senses; ministering to sensuous or sensual gratification; exciting sensual desires; luxurious; sensual. Given to the enjoyments of luxury and pleasure; indulging to excess in sensual gratifications.

Following this train of thought the modern usage of the word, “Development” would sensibly mean “less pleasure”.

Another likelihood is that it comes from the Old French des volopper. Volopper, the root of the word translates as to unravel or to unfold. Its meaning becomes obvious when we look further back to its Latin origin: vellum; i.e., the coat on the back of a sheep. A tangled mass of wool is, in other words, the inspiration for a number of words in at least three languages. In Italian the word, vellum is the root for avviluppare and sviluppare, which mean to envelop and to develop. The French and the English words are very similar and etymologically we are correct in saying the word “develop” has to do with an act of finding what is already there by unraveling and opening up.

This interpretation presents a great challenge to those among us involved in community and economic development. It obliges us to reconsider our role from the position where we develop by researching and implementing projects, which we believe will benefit the community, to a position, which says that the focus of development is within the human heart, head and hands. The only thing we can possibly do to foster real development is to create an environment conducive to the transformation of good ideas into viable and sustainable ventures. A shift from proactive to responsive can only occur, however, if we are capable of believing that people are intrinsically good and that the diversity, variety and apparent randomness of their passions is like the superficially, chaotic, yet ecologically sound life manifestations that can be found in an old growth forest.

To use a metaphor, “develop” means “removing the husk”. The husk is an envelope that needs to crack open in order for the seed to germinate. To develop is more akin to gardening than creating from nothing. Certainly it is a more nurturing activity than a creative one. To develop implies a feminine, maternal, gardening activity aimed at creating the pre-conditions for germination and growth to occur. (Ernesto Sirolli)

Where the development model is tied to a concept of progress from backward, rural “primitive” to urban industrial “civilized,” sustainability is a snare and a delusion. If six billion humans are to have paved roads, pipe born water and electricity the planet is doomed. If the goal is to emulate the “standard of living” of the consumer culture it will only be achieved at the expense of quality of life: fresh air, fresh water, soil integrity, local, diverse, chemical free food, safe clean energy, leisure and time in nature.

“Sustainable development” is only possible with downward mobility, “the owning class joining with the working class to set the world to rights.” (Harvey Jakins) Downward mobility defined as, "The decline in the value of formerly status-laden items and simultaneous growth in the status value of just being satisfied. Self-affirmation will come by underspending incomes and exercising independence as consumers and workers, not by depending upon objects to establish worth”

THE STATUS QUO IS NOT SUSTAINABLE

"The most creative people are REALLY the most creative swipers."

-Tom Peters

http://competingvalues.com/